Tao

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Spiny Norman
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Re: Tao

Post by Spiny Norman »

Dweller wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:22 pm
19. First we name. Then we describe. Then
we compare. Then we set one first, another
last. As soon as we start to name it’s time to
stop.

20. Fill yourself with utmost emptiness.
Embrace internal tranquility. The ten thou-
sand things, see how they arise and flow
around you—each one coming into being,
growing, adapting, changing, fulfilling, then
returning to the source—as you sit in still-
ness in the center, watching.
Tao Te Ching
Fascinating. Does anyone know what the "source" is here?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Dweller
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Re: Tao

Post by Dweller »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:41 am
Dweller wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:22 pm
19. First we name. Then we describe. Then
we compare. Then we set one first, another
last. As soon as we start to name it’s time to
stop.

20. Fill yourself with utmost emptiness.
Embrace internal tranquility. The ten thou-
sand things, see how they arise and flow
around you—each one coming into being,
growing, adapting, changing, fulfilling, then
returning to the source—as you sit in still-
ness in the center, watching.
Tao Te Ching
Fascinating. Does anyone know what the "source" is here?

18. The Tao is the Great Mother. The ten
thousand things are all her children. Know
the Mother and you will know the children.
Know the children and you will know the
Mother.


Tao Te Ching
Dweller
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Re: Tao

Post by Dweller »

This is also cool.

Tao Te Ching about tranquility and letting go.
40. In seeking knowledge, day by day some-
thing is added. In following Tao, day by day
something is dropped. Day by day you do less
and less deliberately. Day by day you don’t do
more and more. You do less and less and
don’t do more and more, until everything
happens spontaneously. Then you act with-
out acting, and do without doing, and achieve
without forcing. And nothing is done. And
nothing is left undone.

41. Muddy water, when still, gradually be-
comes clear. Be still. Let your mud settle and
your mind clear. Wait quietly until the right
action comes naturally.
Ontheway
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Re: Tao

Post by Ontheway »

PeterC86 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:35 pm
Bundokji wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:00 am Both emphasize dualities, and therefore dynamic, which makes "grasping" the wrong way of approaching them.
You say this, and then you follow;
The symbol of the yin yang is made of an encircled opposites of which each has a smaller circle, a seed of some sort which makes it rooted in it. They can resemble human genitalia and be extended to how worldly meaning is constructed. We have the number 4, a duality that resembles a polarity of which a middle can be spoke of in terms of the tetralemma, but will be always disputed. The circle itself symbolizes a spin, or whirlpool, akin to the spinning of the wheel of dhamma. The aim of the spiritual life is therefore to flow out of the spin, and to enter the so-called stream.
:meditate:

Yin yang refers to DO; when this is, that is. Right only exists in opposite to wrong, good in relation to bad, etc. All mere fabrications.
Absolutely nonsense. You don't even know what yinyang means. And its meaning doesn't come close to Paṭiccasamuppāda even a bit.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Spiny Norman
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Re: Tao

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ontheway wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:15 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:35 pm
Bundokji wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:00 am Both emphasize dualities, and therefore dynamic, which makes "grasping" the wrong way of approaching them.
You say this, and then you follow;
The symbol of the yin yang is made of an encircled opposites of which each has a smaller circle, a seed of some sort which makes it rooted in it. They can resemble human genitalia and be extended to how worldly meaning is constructed. We have the number 4, a duality that resembles a polarity of which a middle can be spoke of in terms of the tetralemma, but will be always disputed. The circle itself symbolizes a spin, or whirlpool, akin to the spinning of the wheel of dhamma. The aim of the spiritual life is therefore to flow out of the spin, and to enter the so-called stream.
:meditate:

Yin yang refers to DO; when this is, that is. Right only exists in opposite to wrong, good in relation to bad, etc. All mere fabrications.
Absolutely nonsense. You don't even know what yinyang means. And its meaning doesn't come close to Paṭiccasamuppāda even a bit.
:goodpost:
Just what I was thinking.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
form
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Re: Tao

Post by form »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:39 am How similar is the concept of Tao to the Dhamma?
Relatively compatible, other than Tao is not systematic.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Tao

Post by Coëmgenu »

I've made probably three versions of this post before, but here's what I have to say about the Dào, and I want to use the opening verses of the Dàodéjīng to make this observation. But first, a Buddhist quotation.

Venerable Nāgārjuna says:
All Buddhas rely on two types of truth
in order to teach the Dharma to living beings:
one is the relative and worldly truth,
and the second is the highest truth.

If a person is unable to perceive
the distinction between these two truths,
he will not know the real meaning
of the profound Buddhadharma.

Unless you rely on the relative truth,
you will not attain the highest truth.
Unless you attain the highest truth,
you will not attain nirvāṇa.

If he is unable to perceive emptiness correctly,
a dull-witted man will injure himself.
It is like a mantra unskillfully invoked
or a viper unskillfully grasped.
(MMK 24, from the Chinese)

There are also, of course, Theravādin exegeses on these same two truths. Now, Ven Nāgārjuna's "two truths" are not the same as the Theravādin's "two truths," but since he does not actually expound those truths in the above passage, I think that there is nothing in it that would be particularly at variance with basic Theravādin "Dhamma."

The Dàodéjīng, and all of Dàoism truth be told, also has a version of these two truths.
The way that is walked is not the eternal way.
The name that is named is not the eternal name.
The unnamed is the wellspring of heaven and earth;
The named is the mother of ten thousand things.
In a state of constant non-desire, the mystery is seen.
In a state of constant desire, the surfaces are seen.
These two realities are the same in source, but they differ in name.
Their sameness is a secret.
It is the secret of all secrets — the door to all mysteries.
The "mystery" versus the "surfaces" is the Dàoist version of "the two truths."

There are a few things to keep in mind here. The verse is very terse here. The two terms I want to draw attention to are "heaven and earth" (天地 "tiāndì") and "ten thousand things" (萬物 "wànwù"). These can both be read as euphemisms for "everything" or "all there is (in the world)" or "all things." Both of these terms are euphemisms for these.

"Ten thousand" here can be read as standing in for "all" or "many" or "the many" (as in "the many things"). This reading is still around in modern Chinese, and you can see it attested on this Wiktionary page:

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/萬#Definitions

Similarly, "heaven and earth" can mean "everything" in a very literal sense, just like "all things" can. "All on the earth and everything above it" is how it comes to mean "everything." When reading ancient Chinese texts, what is translated as "heaven" is very fluid. Sometimes "heaven" is the material sky made up of the many airs and winds. Sometimes "heaven" is the celestial realm beyond the air. Sometimes "heaven" is a particular great conjunction of the stars. Sometimes "heaven" is a high God of all the cosmos. All of these senses ideally should be there in the mind when reading about "heaven" in a Daoist, Confucian, or even Chinese Buddhist text. That being said, obviously it's not going to mean "up in the air" every time you read it. It generally has a deeper sense than that, but also having the mundane worldly sense of "the heavens" is important, such as when "heaven and earth" comes to mean "everything that is," figuratively speaking. If you also have this sense of "heaven" as "the airs" or even "the atmosphere," then the connection between "heaven and earth" (天地) and the notion of "this very world and everything in it" becomes more intuitive.

So the line is quite mysterious and seemingly-redundant. But this is part of its poetic message. Another point:

The unnamed is the wellspring of everything;
The named is the mother of everything.


"Wellspring" (始) and "mother" (母) are both functionally synonymous here. They are both "origins."

I want to end with an unrelated quote from Zhuāngzǐ, a less-known Dàoist text:
A fish-trap is used, therefore there are fish.
There are fish and forgotten is the fish-trap.
A rabbit-trap is used, therefore there are rabbits.
There are rabbits and forgotten is the rabbit-trap.
Words are used, therefore there is meaning.
There is meaning and forgotten are the words.
Where can I find the word-forgetting man, so that I may have with him words?
The last line is my favourite because of the internal paradox. The man has forgotten his words, because he has the meaning. The narrator wishes to "have words with him." He's forgotten them. Lovely. It's like a punchline.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
PeterC86
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Re: Tao

Post by PeterC86 »

DNS wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:48 am
Ontheway wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:34 am ...
Interesting, thanks. I thought there was a philosophical Taoism that wasn't into the pantheon of gods, but it turns out, it's a Western invention.
Taoism in the West today is not at all like Chinese Taoist religion. Very few Westerners have adopted its gods and goddesses, although there are a few organizations... that have installed altars in their centres, worship Taoist gods, and celebrate Taoist (and Buddhist) festival days.

Livia Kohn, Michael Lafargue, Lao-Tzu and the Tao-Te-Ching, State University of New York Press, 1998
https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religion ... ind%20them.

Taoism is often taught in the West as an atheist or agnostic philosophy, but in China and Taiwan particularly, Taoism still functions like any conventional religion, and not like an abstract philosophy of life.
If Tao is called or seen as a religion, that what is called or seen as a religion is already not according to Tao. There's no way to sneak little truths in Tao, just like there's no way to sneak little truths into DO, except from not-realizing. If something is called Taosim or Buddhism, it is already not according to Tao or Buddhadhamma. Tao and Buddhadhamma are refering to the same; unconditioning.

People who do not realize Tao and DO, turn them into a religion, by sneaking in their own little fabricated truths. Existence only is in relation to non-existence, form in relation to formless, perception in relation to non-perception; all mere fabrications through clinging. They are all DO and yin yang; when this, then that. When existence, then non-existence, etc. All impermanent, all dukkha, all empty, all not-self, and all not-graspable, hence 'unconditioned'.

People cling to intelligibility because it makes them seem wise. No further from Tao and Buddhadhamma they can get.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Tao

Post by Coëmgenu »

PeterC86 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:08 amIf Tao is called or seen as a religion, that what is called or seen as a religion is already not according to Tao. There's no way to sneak little truths in Tao, just like there's no way to sneak little truths into DO, except from not-realizing. If something is called Taosim or Buddhism, it is already not according to Tao or Buddhadhamma. Tao and Buddhadhamma are refering to the same; unconditioning.
Nope.

The idea of Dàoism you are pedaling here is nothing but a neutered Westernized version of a Chinese religion. Westerners do this all the same. Strip the religion of the elements they find too confusing and then repackage it as a philosophy that no one follows but everyone knows.

"Oh, Dàoism? I know all about that. It's the philosophy of letting things flow."

"Once you know what the Dào is, you don't know what the Dào is."


:toilet:

These contrived platitudes can easily be adapted to any religion.

"Oh, Christianity? I know all about that. It's the philosophy of how to become a loving person towards your neighbour."

"Once you know what Christ is, you don't know what Christ is."


:toilet:

"Oh, Buddhism? I know all about that. It's the philosophy of how to become utterly selfless."

"Once you know what the Buddha is, you don't know what the Buddha is."


It's very predicable, and more than a little trite. Let the religion speak for itself. Don't misrepresent yourself as an expert on Dàoism in the same way that you misrepresent yourself as an expert on the Buddhadharma.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
asahi
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Re: Tao

Post by asahi »

道可道,非(恆)道;名可名,非(恆)名。
The word in bracket suppose to be the original one . FYI.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Tao

Post by Spiny Norman »

Dweller wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:04 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:41 am
Dweller wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 7:22 pm

Tao Te Ching
Fascinating. Does anyone know what the "source" is here?

18. The Tao is the Great Mother. The ten
thousand things are all her children. Know
the Mother and you will know the children.
Know the children and you will know the
Mother.


Tao Te Ching
Does the Tao/Great Mother refer to some sort of underlying reality, or "ground of being"?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Tao

Post by Coëmgenu »

I'd say "yes." It says as much in the opening verses. The unnamed is the origin of everything. The named is the origin of everything. The unnamed is the mystery. The named is merely the surfaces. The surfaces and the mystery are the same as far as their source, yet they differ in name all the same. The equivalence of these two, the unnamed and the named, heaven and earth versus the 10,000 things, is a "secret" that is the door to all mysteries.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Tao

Post by Coëmgenu »

This is "real" Daoism:



This is "real" Daoism:



This is not "real" Daoism:

What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
PeterC86
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Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2019 7:06 pm

Re: Tao

Post by PeterC86 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:56 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:08 amIf Tao is called or seen as a religion, that what is called or seen as a religion is already not according to Tao. There's no way to sneak little truths in Tao, just like there's no way to sneak little truths into DO, except from not-realizing. If something is called Taosim or Buddhism, it is already not according to Tao or Buddhadhamma. Tao and Buddhadhamma are refering to the same; unconditioning.
Nope.

The idea of Dàoism you are pedaling here is nothing but a neutered Westernized version of a Chinese religion. Westerners do this all the same. Strip the religion of the elements they find too confusing and then repackage it as a philosophy that no one follows but everyone knows.
Our explanations are wonderfully complementing actually. I was talking about the mystery, the unnamed, which indeed refers to the ultimate; the all; the unconditioned. You refer mostly to the named, which refers to the conventional; name-and-form; concepts; 10,000 things.

So you have almost everything right, except for that 10,000 things doesn't refer to everything, but merely phenomena (that are named). Therefore they are the same, in that all phenomena are everything, but they refer to something different; named are phenomena, and unnamed is everything. If the ultimate is understood, words can be forgotten.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Tao

Post by Coëmgenu »

PeterC86 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:13 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 1:56 pm
PeterC86 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:08 amIf Tao is called or seen as a religion, that what is called or seen as a religion is already not according to Tao. There's no way to sneak little truths in Tao, just like there's no way to sneak little truths into DO, except from not-realizing. If something is called Taosim or Buddhism, it is already not according to Tao or Buddhadhamma. Tao and Buddhadhamma are refering to the same; unconditioning.
Nope.

The idea of Dàoism you are pedaling here is nothing but a neutered Westernized version of a Chinese religion. Westerners do this all the same. Strip the religion of the elements they find too confusing and then repackage it as a philosophy that no one follows but everyone knows.
Our explanations are wonderfully complementing actually.
If you think we are in agreement, it must be because you have misunderstood me.
PeterC86 wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 6:13 pm10,000 things doesn't refer to everything, but merely phenomena (that are named).
Your view here does not actually accord with the text. Either way, "heaven and earth," i.e. what the "10,000 things" are contrasted with, are both named and enumerated.

You are of course free to interpret this Chinese poem any way you want, but just because it can read in such-and-such way from a Petervādin hermeneutic doesn't make it so.

The "ultimate" is quite different in Dàoism, and it does both religions a disservice to simplify them to the point where they can both be said to be saying more-or-less the same generic unimpressive message about dropping it all or going with the flow or "not-realizing."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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