Sotapanna and five precepts

[User13866]

You said:

So you think a Faith Follower wouldn't do or be able to rehabilitate himself having killed an ant with himself, his family and 10 Arahants at gunpoint?

You are the one who said words to the effect of "what if a faith follower killed . . ." not me. I never brought up faith followers and then qualified it that if they could kill, then yes, they could rehabilitate. I never said they kill. You did that. trollin, trollin, trollin . . .

I was only referring to stream-entrants and higher, I never discussed faith followers.

Again you are contradicting yourself

Well a faith follower is a noble one... they have transcended the run-off-the-mill.

I was referring to the 4 noble states of realization, starting with stream-entrants.

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... ble_states

And 8 types of Noble Ones.

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... Noble_Ones

Of which faith follower is #1 according to you

I will ask you again
So you think a faith-follower isn't practicing for fruit of stream-entry?

Yes, they are practicing for stream-entry. I didn't even mention faith follower in my posts, you are bringing it up, apparently to find an argument where there is none?

Eight types of Noble Ones:

1. One practicing for the fruit of stream-entry

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... Noble_Ones

[DNS]

Again you are contradicting yourself

Nope. I said stream-entrants and higher. I never discussed faith followers. You brought up faith followers. I never made a claim about faith followers one way or the other.

[User13866]

Again you are contradicting yourself

Nope. I said stream-entrants and higher. I never discussed faith followers. You brought up faith followers. I never made a claim about faith followers one way or the other.

This is a waste of my time...

You said

I was referring to the 4 noble states of realization, starting with stream-entrants.

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... ble_states

And 8 types of Noble Ones.

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?ti ... Noble_Ones

Note the And 8 types of Noble Ones.

Then we established that faith follower is among the 8.

Now you are saying you never meant to include the faith follower.

Good night

[User13866]

Appreciate it if some sensible person can comment. If nobody agrees with me then i won't bother participating anymore.

[DNS]

When I referred to no intentional killing, I was referring to stream-entrants and higher, I never discussed faith followers one way or the other. You kept bringing up faith followers and asked hypothetically "what if a faith follower killed, could they rehabilitate . . ." I never took a stand one way or the other on faith followers, just stream-entrants and higher.

This is a waste of my time...
Good night

Agreed.

[Ontheway]

Appreciate it if some sensible person can comment. If nobody agrees with me then i won't bother participating anymore.

Faith-followers and Dhamma-followers are not Sotapanna yet. They don't have Ariyakantasila by that definition.

Sotapanna and onwards, on the other hand, have Ariyakantasila. As simple as that. And all of them will neither kill nor cause others to kill, unless we are talking about killing unintentionally (in the case of Arahant Cakkhupala Thera), which is without Cetana.

Sotapanna (in the case of layfollowers) will of course, from time to time being heedless and may responsible for some minor mistakes too (as in the Suttas said they will ask for forgiveness), yet they will not violate the five precepts as these precepts are the basics for one to avoid woeful existence in next life.

Ya, you better stop participating as you mixed up points when people present them to you clearly. What makes you think your words hold any significant value in Theravada when you forsaken the entire Theravada exegesis tradition? It is like a western hipster walks into Japanese kabuki theater , teaching Japanese how to be 'Japanese'. Just weird.

[User13866]

Appreciate it if some sensible person can comment. If nobody agrees with me then i won't bother participating anymore.

Faith-followers and Dhamma-followers are not Sotapanna yet. They don't have Ariyakantasila by that definition.

Sotapanna and onwards, on the other hand, have Ariyakantasila. As simple as that. And all of them will neither kill nor cause others to kill, unless we are talking about killing unintentionally (in the case of Arahant Cakkhupala Thera), which is without Cetana.

Sotapanna (in the case of layfollowers) will of course, from time to time being heedless and may responsible for some minor mistakes too (as in the Suttas said they will ask for forgiveness), yet they will not violate the five precepts as these precepts are the basics for one to avoid woeful existence in next life.

Ya, you better stop participating as you mixed up points when people present them to you clearly. What makes you think your words hold any significant value in Theravada when you forsaken the entire Theravada exegesis tradition? It is like a western hipster walks into Japanese kabuki theater , teaching Japanese how to be 'Japanese'. Just weird.

Tell me more

Seven Types of Disciples

The sevenfold typology is originally found in the Kitāgiri Sutta of the Majjhima Nikāya (M.i,477-79) and is reformulated in the Puggalapaññatti of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. This typology classifies the noble persons on the paths and fruits into seven types: [1] the faith-devotee, [2] the one liberated by faith, [3] the body-witness, [4] the one liberated in both ways, [5] the truth-devotee, [6] the one attained to understanding, and [7] the one liberated by wisdom.[1] The seven types may be divided into three general groups, each defined by the predominance of a particular spiritual faculty. The first two types are governed by a predominance of faith, the middle two by a predominance of concentration, and the last three by a predominance of wisdom. To this division, however, certain qualifications will have to be made as we go along.  

[1] The faith-devotee

The faith-devotee is explained in the sutta thus:

Herein, monks, some person has not reached with his own (mental) body those peaceful immaterial deliverances transcending material form; nor after seeing with wisdom, have his cankers been destroyed.[2] But he has a certain degree of faith in the Tathāgata, a certain degree of devotion to him, and he has these qualities - the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. This person, monks, is called a faith-devotee. [M.i,479]

The Puggalapaññatti (p. 182) defines the faith-devotee from a different angle as a disciple practising for the fruit of stream-entry in whom the faculty of faith is predominant and who develops the noble path led by faith. It adds that when he is established in the fruit he becomes one liberated by faith
https://www.palikanon.com/english/the_j ... anas06.htm

Tell me more about how two of the noble disciples don't have virtues dear to noble ones

6. "The eight persons extolled by virtuous men constitute four pairs. They are the disciples of the Buddha and are worthy of offerings. Gifts given to them yield rich results. This precious jewel is the Sangha.[4] By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html

Tell me more about how factors of stream entry are absent in them

“What do you think, Bhaddāli? Suppose a bhikkhu here were one liberated-by-wisdom…a body-witness…one attained-to-view…one liberated-by-faith…a Dhamma-follower…a faith-follower, and I told him: ‘Come, bhikkhu, be a plank for me across the mud.’ Would he walk across himself, or would he dispose his body otherwise, or would he say ‘No’?”

“No, venerable sir.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn65/en/bodhi? ... ight=false

Tell me more about how being freed from hell and not taking an 8th birth, how being headed for self-awakening, two of the noble disciples can't proclaim themselves Sotapanna

"Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Tell me more but not in your own words, i don't care about your unsubstantiated verbosity, post sutta references.

The irony is that you probably can't even argument your case properly, you probably don't even know where the evidence for your position is in the sutta pitaka let alone explaining both sides.

And sure i'll leave the forum but it's only because you guys are rude, expressing animosity, not standing by standard procedure, are jumping from one thing to another, are merely parroting weak talking points, don't understand simple things, aren't fit to talk to and because nobody agrees with me.

[Joe.c]

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Let me just answer this for you from Buddha's word in MN 34.

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Just like the baby calf who had just been born, but, urged on by its mother’s lowing, still managed to cross the Ganges to safety

Seyyathāpi so, bhikkhave, vacchako taruṇako tāvadeva jātako mātugoravakena vuyhamāno tiriyaṁ gaṅgāya sotaṁ chetvā sotthinā pāraṁ agamāsi;

are the mendicants who are followers of teachings, followers by faith. They too, having breasted Māra’s stream, will safely cross over to the far shore.

evameva kho, bhikkhave, ye te bhikkhū dhammānusārino saddhānusārino, tepi tiriyaṁ mārassa sotaṁ chetvā sotthinā pāraṁ gamissanti.

From this sutta, the dhammanusari and saddhanusari are stream enterer (sotapanna-magga).

The perfection of sila is done when one reach sotapanna-phala with 4 factors of stream enterers. These only occured when the 3 low fetters are broken. The sotapanna magga will reach the sotapanna-phala at most before end of their life similar to sarakani or others mention in sutta.

[User13866]

This will be my last post

...

Let me just answer this for you from Buddha's word in MN 34.

...
Just like the baby calf who had just been born, but, urged on by its mother’s lowing, still managed to cross the Ganges to safety

Seyyathāpi so, bhikkhave, vacchako taruṇako tāvadeva jātako mātugoravakena vuyhamāno tiriyaṁ gaṅgāya sotaṁ chetvā sotthinā pāraṁ agamāsi;

are the mendicants who are followers of teachings, followers by faith. They too, having breasted Māra’s stream, will safely cross over to the far shore.

evameva kho, bhikkhave, ye te bhikkhū dhammānusārino saddhānusārino, tepi tiriyaṁ mārassa sotaṁ chetvā sotthinā pāraṁ gamissanti.

From this sutta, the dhammanusari and saddhanusari are stream enterer (sotapanna-magga).

Of course they are...

If one reads the sutta definition of what is the minimal qualifier for stream-entry, it is the distinguishment of what is rightly spoken

"Why, Mahaanaama, if these great sal trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken, I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners...
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html

If one reads sutta one will see that there is "knowing & seeing" in as far as mere lip-recital

As far as mere lip-reciting and rehearsal of his teaching went, I could speak with knowledge and assurance, and I claimed, ‘I know and see’—and there were others who did likewise.
https://suttacentral.net/mn26/en/bodhi? ... ight=false

Therefore a faith follower & a dhamma-follower can proclaim to know & see the Dhamma of The Buddha, if only in as far as mere lip-recital goes, they know & see and it will not be long until they see with wisdom as to gain direct knowledge.

One who knows & sees the dhamma [general instruction] is a stream-enterer.

At Savatthi. "Monks, the eye is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The mind is inconstant, changeable, alterable.
[...]
"One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"Aggivessana, I discipline my disciples in this way; this part of my instruction is generally presented to my disciples: 'Form is inconstant. Feeling is inconstant. Perception is inconstant. Fabrications are inconstant. Consciousness is inconstant. Form is not-self. Feeling is not-self. Perception is not-self. Fabrications are not-self. Consciousness is not-self. All fabrications are inconstant. All phenomena are not-self.' This, Aggivessana, is the way in which I discipline my disciples; this part of my instruction is generally presented to my disciples."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

I've substantiated every sentence here with texts known to be true, and i myself can't argue against this.

[Joe.c]

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Only problem is you need to see/know/associate with other nobles too. Not just by reading book.

[User13866]

...

Only problem is you need to see/know/associate with other nobles too. Not just by reading book.

Why do you make these awful insinuations in saying these things, what have i done to you?

I've studied these texts for soon 7 years, have already attained nirodha and have not intentionally killed for any of this time. I've posted here as [name redacted by admin], [name redacted by admin] and [name redacted by admin] and ya'll are very disrespectful.

However, by asservation of this truth may you all be happy.

Anyway, time to keep to what i said and leave the forum

[Joe.c]

...

Why do you take it personally and getting upset? Good, if you think you are sotapanna.

Btw, if you are a sotapanna, you will go investigate again when someone say otherwise. Or use the dhamma dasa (mirror of dhamma) to check whether you have the 4 factors of stream enterer. Or look at MN 48 whether one has similar qualities as sotapanna-phala.

If you have those, then good. Because nobody can take away from you. Even a mara, deva, other human, brahma can't take away your wisdom. Your confidence is unshakable.

If not, then maybe you have over estimate your attainment. Time to recheck again.

I'm just saying Buddha also said a noble will see/know other nobles. Otherwise they can't be a noble. See MN 2.

Just for a thought, if anyone can just read Sutta, then wouldn't the world fill with sotapanna by now? But, the last I checked even a popular figure may not be a stream enterer yet.

There are also lots of Buddhist scholars, but do you think all of them has reached steam enterer?

So, this Buddha teaching is a dynamic teaching, not a static teaching. One needs to keep investigate until everything is clear, no single doubt. Once it is clear, one needs to maintain it till end of life. Not once and done. Unless one has reached arahant, even then the wisdom is there for them to check.

So precepts need to be practice day and night. It becomes automatic.

[Ontheway]

...

Only problem is you need to see/know/associate with other nobles too. Not just by reading book.

Why do you make these awful insinuations in saying these things, what have i done to you?

I've studied these texts for soon 7 years, have already attained nirodha and have not intentionally killed for any of this time. I've posted here as [name redacted by admin], [name redacted by admin] and [name redacted by admin] and ya'll are very disrespectful.

However, by asservation of this truth may you all be happy.

Anyway, time to keep to what i said and leave the forum

Are you saying you are Anagami or Arahant? Yet confused at simple point of precept?

You are making claims here. And if making claims that are false, the Vipaka is serious and potentially will lead you to take birth in Hell next existence.

Think twice and if you dare, maintain your position thrice.

[Ontheway]

Appreciate it if some sensible person can comment. If nobody agrees with me then i won't bother participating anymore.

Faith-followers and Dhamma-followers are not Sotapanna yet. They don't have Ariyakantasila by that definition.

Sotapanna and onwards, on the other hand, have Ariyakantasila. As simple as that. And all of them will neither kill nor cause others to kill, unless we are talking about killing unintentionally (in the case of Arahant Cakkhupala Thera), which is without Cetana.

Sotapanna (in the case of layfollowers) will of course, from time to time being heedless and may responsible for some minor mistakes too (as in the Suttas said they will ask for forgiveness), yet they will not violate the five precepts as these precepts are the basics for one to avoid woeful existence in next life.

Ya, you better stop participating as you mixed up points when people present them to you clearly. What makes you think your words hold any significant value in Theravada when you forsaken the entire Theravada exegesis tradition? It is like a western hipster walks into Japanese kabuki theater , teaching Japanese how to be 'Japanese'. Just weird.

Tell me more

Seven Types of Disciples

The sevenfold typology is originally found in the Kitāgiri Sutta of the Majjhima Nikāya (M.i,477-79) and is reformulated in the Puggalapaññatti of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. This typology classifies the noble persons on the paths and fruits into seven types: [1] the faith-devotee, [2] the one liberated by faith, [3] the body-witness, [4] the one liberated in both ways, [5] the truth-devotee, [6] the one attained to understanding, and [7] the one liberated by wisdom.[1] The seven types may be divided into three general groups, each defined by the predominance of a particular spiritual faculty. The first two types are governed by a predominance of faith, the middle two by a predominance of concentration, and the last three by a predominance of wisdom. To this division, however, certain qualifications will have to be made as we go along.  

[1] The faith-devotee

The faith-devotee is explained in the sutta thus:

Herein, monks, some person has not reached with his own (mental) body those peaceful immaterial deliverances transcending material form; nor after seeing with wisdom, have his cankers been destroyed.[2] But he has a certain degree of faith in the Tathāgata, a certain degree of devotion to him, and he has these qualities - the faculties of faith, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. This person, monks, is called a faith-devotee. [M.i,479]

The Puggalapaññatti (p. 182) defines the faith-devotee from a different angle as a disciple practising for the fruit of stream-entry in whom the faculty of faith is predominant and who develops the noble path led by faith. It adds that when he is established in the fruit he becomes one liberated by faith
https://www.palikanon.com/english/the_j ... anas06.htm

Tell me more about how two of the noble disciples don't have virtues dear to noble ones

6. "The eight persons extolled by virtuous men constitute four pairs. They are the disciples of the Buddha and are worthy of offerings. Gifts given to them yield rich results. This precious jewel is the Sangha.[4] By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html

Tell me more about how factors of stream entry are absent in them

“What do you think, Bhaddāli? Suppose a bhikkhu here were one liberated-by-wisdom…a body-witness…one attained-to-view…one liberated-by-faith…a Dhamma-follower…a faith-follower, and I told him: ‘Come, bhikkhu, be a plank for me across the mud.’ Would he walk across himself, or would he dispose his body otherwise, or would he say ‘No’?”

“No, venerable sir.”
https://suttacentral.net/mn65/en/bodhi? ... ight=false

Tell me more about how being freed from hell and not taking an 8th birth, how being headed for self-awakening, two of the noble disciples can't proclaim themselves Sotapanna

"Sariputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: 'Hell is ended; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry shades is ended; states of deprivation, destitution, the bad bourns are ended! I am a stream-winner, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening!'
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Tell me more but not in your own words, i don't care about your unsubstantiated verbosity, post sutta references.

The irony is that you probably can't even argument your case properly, you probably don't even know where the evidence for your position is in the sutta pitaka let alone explaining both sides.

And sure i'll leave the forum but it's only because you guys are rude, expressing animosity, not standing by standard procedure, are jumping from one thing to another, are merely parroting weak talking points, don't understand simple things, aren't fit to talk to and because nobody agrees with me.

You misinterpretated the scriptures.

Okkantasamyutta clearly stated, Saddhanusari and Dhammanusari, are not the same level as Sotapanna.

Quoting Bhante Sujato,

One with faith in the teachings on the six interior sense fields is called a “follower by faith”, while someone with conceptual understanding is called a “follower of the teachings”. But someone who sees them directly is called a stream-enterer.

https://suttacentral.net/sn25?view=normal

Sotapanna is the level where a student REALIZED/SEEN the truth. While Saddhanusari is a student that BELIEVES the truth by faith or confidence; and Dhammanusari is a student that ACCEPTED the truth by investigating it by sufficient wisdom and logic. Both Saddhanusari and Dhammanusari, of course, will eventually attain Sotapannahood soon before they pass away in that particular lifetime, but not yet Sotapanna.

And sure i'll leave the forum but it's only because you guys are rude, expressing animosity, not standing by standard procedure, are jumping from one thing to another, are merely parroting weak talking points, don't understand simple things, aren't fit to talk to and because nobody agrees with me.

Pathetic. What you are three years old?

[User13866]

As to killing;

I personally don't kill but nobody has held my family at a gunpoint to test if i would kill an ant. I can say that i wouldn't be surprised if i didn't kill but i can't know for sure if i would. I can only say what i think is right thing to do as i see it and that is not to kill.

I can also say that if i did do it that is because id think that i'd be able to rehabilitate myself & due to attachment to my relatives but i also think that killing an innocent being would bother me more so than if my family got killed by another person.

Furthermore i don't know the minds of all of the Sotapannas, i don't know all of those that came before nor all of those that will come in the future.

I don't know what they would do or wouldn't do beyond what is stated in the texts.

I do know that Arahants don't kill, this is canonical.

Five things that can’t be done. A mendicant with defilements ended can’t deliberately take the life of a living creature, take something with the intention to steal, have sex, tell a deliberate lie, or store up goods for their own enjoyment like they did as a lay person.
https://suttacentral.net/dn33/en/sujato ... ript=latin

For Ariya with defilement no such thing has been stated in the Canon.

...

Why do you take it personally and getting upset? Good, if you think you are sotapanna.

I don't believe it at all. I live having attained it and i see it in myself all day & everyday since.

Just for a thought, if anyone can just read Sutta, then wouldn't the world fill with sotapanna by now? But, the last I checked even a popular figure may not be a stream enterer yet.

You are taking things out of context. I never said it's enough to read the texts or that reciting is enough to be ariya. I only pointed out how the term "know & see" can be used.

It's not enough to just read & recite the texts.

One has to have conviction [faith-follower] in phenomena being that way or understanding [dhamma-follower] why & how phenomena are that way.

These two see & know not only by mere lip recital, one sees & knows things to be that way based on conviction, another sees & knows as he understands it to be that way.

One's conviction & understanding needs to be correct to the point where one can distinguish what is right from what is wrongly spoken.

At some point, i too used to think that Faith-Follower & Dhamma-Follower are probably not called Sotapanna because they haven't seen with wisdom but i've become convinced otherwise. I am not sure but am convinced at this point.

There are also lots of Buddhist scholars, but do you think all of them has reached steam enterer?

I don't know many Buddhist scholars. One can study & recite texts whilst holding grave wrong views. There are many people who study these texts but arrive at understanding them to teach annihillation or eternalism.

Just wanted to clarify this for closure.