Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

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Assaji
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by Assaji »

cittaanurakkho wrote:Any mentioned of aurora in the Pali text or elsewhere? Could be the radiant deva?
Russian scholar of Mahabharata Boris Smirnov brought up a hypothesis that the apsara's "play of rainbows", described in Mahabharata as happening near Meru, is actually aurora.

There are descriptions of mount Meru's efflugence in Mahabharata:

There is a glowing mountain called Meru, which is bathed in its own radiance. Fine beyond all other mountains, it subdues the sun's own light with its dazzling golden peaks. Indeed, it is like a wondrous golden ornament. Popular with gods and Gandharvas, it is immeasurable and can be approached only by those who are abundantly righteous. Awesome beasts of prey frequent that great mountain, and heavenly herbs illumine it. Standing tall, it spreads up and over the vault of heaven. Unattainable by most, lying beyond even their imagination, this mountain, rich in rivers and forests, resounds with the songs of the most charming varieties of birds.
Scaling its bright and gem-studded peak, which rises almost forever upward, all the mighty demigods once met atop the Meru Mount.

http://philosophy.ru/library/asiatica/i ... 1_adi.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01018.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Between these two (viz., Malyavat and Gandhamadana) is a globular mountain called Meru made of gold. Effulgent as the morning sun, it is like fire without smoke. It is eighty-four thousand Yojanas high, and, O king, its depth also is eighty-four Yojanas. It standeth bearing the worlds above, below and transversely. Besides Meru are situated, O lord, these four islands, viz., Bhadraswa, and Ketumala, and Jamvudwipa otherwise called Bharata, and Uttar-Kuru which is the abode of persons who have achieved the merit of righteousness. The bird Sumukha, the son of Suparna, beholding that all the birds on Meru were of golden plumage, reflected that he should leave that mountain inasmuch as there was no difference between the good, middling, and bad birds. The foremost of luminaries, the sun, always circumambulates Meru, as also the moon with (his) attendant constellation, and the Wind-god too.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m06/m06006.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

See also:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m03/m03162.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the commentary to Stapatha Brahmana:

'On the top of Mount Meru lies the city of Amarâvatî, wherein the gods dwell; and beneath Meru lies Irâvatî, the city of the Asuras: between these two lies the earth.' Sâyana.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbr/sbe ... htm#fn_295" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by gavesako »

Interesting maps with the four continents on this Thai website:

http://thanyakij.in.th/node/65-Buddhist ... Flat-Earth" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://thanyakij.in.th/node/66-Buddhist ... -MT-Sumeru" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Assaji
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by Assaji »

gavesako wrote:Interesting maps with the four continents on this Thai website:
Thank you. It's interesting that the Chinese sculpture presents Mount Sumeru as umbrella-shaped, just as Earth's magnetosphere.

http://www.peking-tours.com/lama-temple/mount-xumi.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This corresponds very well with other ancient depictions.

http://www.exoticindiaart.com/product/TF41/
http://phoenixandturtle.net/images/meru.jpg
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by gavesako »

Apparently there the belief among some Thai Buddhists that the Uttarakuru continent actually refers to beings living on another planet. :alien:
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Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by theY »

Thank you, for creating this topic at pali section. I tried to practice my English, very hard. So I will talk this topic in pali.

1. 'Suddhāvāse kira anāgāmimahābrahmā isiyo vedapakaraṇaṃ abhaṇi. atha kho cirakālesu atikantesu isayo brāhmaṇā hutvā taṃ pakaraṇameva bhananti.' koci ācariyo maṃ 'imaṃ atthaṃ atthakathāya vutta'nti.

Taṃ ambaṭṭhasutte "Āgatāni kho, tāta ambaṭṭha, amhākaṃ mantesu dvattiṃsa mahāpurisalakkhaṇānī"tiātivatthunā sameti.

Tassa ca atthakathā vuttaṃ "Mahāpurisalakkhaṇanti mahāpurisānaṃ buddhādīnaṃ lakkhaṇadīpakaṃ dvādasasahassaganthapamāṇaṃ satthaṃ. Yattha soḷasasahassagāthāparimāṇā buddhamantā nāma ahesuṃ, yesaṃ vasena iminā lakkhaṇena samannāgatā buddhā nāma honti, iminā paccekabuddhā, iminā dve aggasāvakā, asīti mahāsāvakā , buddhamātā, buddhapitā, aggupaṭṭhāko, aggupaṭṭhāyikā, rājā cakkavattīti ayaṃ viseso paññāyatī"ti.

Tasma "kathaṃ imaṃ pakaraṇaṃ veddo viyā"ti evaṃ kaṅkhamāno na yujjati.

2. Mahābrahmā vā iddhimantā vā amhakaṃ mattaṃ na ganeyyuṃ. Tasma te te theories tipiṭakana vā atthakathāya vā vuttaṃ, ādittacandanapamānikaṃ vā dīpantaraddhānayocanapamānikāṃ vā aññe tule vā, gahetvā "Buddtist theories 'science'to na sametī"ti na vaṭṭati.

Tañhi atirekamattā tipiṭake vā atthakathāya vā atthi. Keci 1 yojanaṃ~=1km, keci 1 ~=16km.

So, we can't compare tipitaka and commentary's system or scale with science's.

3. Mahābrahmā vā iddhimantā vā talamattaṃ aññamaṇṇehi na sameyyuṃ. Eko "Pluto"tārakaṃ ṭhitamāno ādittaṃ vā candaṃ vā disvā ekaṃ pamānikaṃ bhaṇeyya. Aparo "mar" ṭhitamāno ekaṃ pamānikaṃ bhaṇeyya. Āñño aññacakkavāḷaṃ ṭhitamāno añña-ādittamattaṃ pamānikaṃ bhaṇeyya. Te hi ekavatthukaṃ apassiṃsu. ṭehi pana pamānaṃ kataṃ aññamaññaṃ na samenti. Tasma mayaṃ poraṇamattaṃ na jāneyyuṃ.

4.Whoever didn't practice follow tipiṭaka, atthakathā, and ṭīkā, they can't actually deny or accept that point, because they are acinteyya.

5.Sineru can refer to axis, sun, or any other thing, that analysts can guess, if they don't try to guess only another view.

, etc.

How there significant to know about size of the sun ?

P.S. I think, I shouldn't write in pali anymore if I don't want to practice my pali writing-- harder than english! (but before I began to practice english, it was easier.) I skip my tried with english to have a headache with pali~

I hope someday we will have pali offline dictionary for linux.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by Assaji »

Assaji wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:54 pm 'America' is said to be bigger in extent than 'Africa' and 'Australia', but smaller than 'Eurasia'.

What can we conclude from such reconstruction?
Several instances are given of the Buddha having gone to Uttarakuru for alms. Having obtained his food there, he would go to the Anotatta lake, bathe in its waters and, after the meal, spend the afternoon on its banks (See, e.g., Vin.i.27-8; DhsA.16; DhA.iii.222). The power of going to Uttarakuru for alms is not restricted to the Buddha; Pacceka Buddhas and various ascetics are mentioned as having visited Uttarakuru on their begging rounds (See, e.g., J.v.316; vi.100; MA.i.340; SnA.ii.420). It is considered a mark of great iddhi-power to be able to do this (E.g., Rohita, SA.i.93; also Mil.84).
http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... rakuru.htm

If this reconstruction is correct, and the information in Vinaya and Atthakatha is truthful, then Buddha has visited America.
It is noteworthy that the description of Uttarakuru in the Atanatiya Sutta:
Yena uttarakuruvho, mahāneru sudassano.
Manussā tattha jāyanti, amamā apariggahā.


32. "Where lies delightful Uttarakuru (the Northern continent), where towers beautiful Mount Meru, there are born men who are selfless and unattached

33. "They neither sow the seed nor use the plow. Spontaneously grown corn is there for them to enjoy.

34. "The rice, purged of the red powder and of husk, clean and sweet-scented, is boiled in golden vessels; it is this that they partake of.

35. "They make of cows a single-seated mount (like mounting on horseback) and ride about from place to place.

36-37. "They make use of women and men, girls and boys as vehicles, and travel from place to place in them.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .piya.html

corresponds very well to our knowledge of Mesoamerican history. Indeed, the ancient inhabitants of America dressed very modestly. Their staple food was corn.

There were great difficulties with transportation - the peoples of Mesoamerica did not know the wheel and did not have draft animals (in America there were simply no animals like a horse or a bull that could be domesticated).

Image

And the key metal for making jewelry and tableware was gold. On the territory of Mesoamerica there are reserves of metal ores: copper, gold, silver, iron. However, metallurgy here begins not earlier than the 9th-10th centuries AD. Apparently, the use of copper and bronze tools in Mesoamerican agriculture was not particularly beneficial. This is confirmed by the fact that, right up to the Spanish conquest, jewelry predominated in metal products over utilitarian items. As for iron, its inhabitants of the New World in the pre-Columbian period of their history did not know how to either mine or process it.

Image
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

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Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:19 pm One problem with Sumeru being the magnetic field is that this earth should have two Sumerus then, one on the south pole as well.
Indeed.
In verse 34 of the 12th chapter ( titled भूगोलाधिकारः ), of Surya Siddhanta section from Panchasiddhantika, a work of Varahamihira, we find the following description:

अनेकरत्न निचयो जाम्बूनदमयो गिरिः
भूगोल मध्यगो मेरुरुभयत्र विनिर्गतः

“Filled with different types of precious stones, the golden Meru mountain goes through the center of the globe onto either side”
https://hamsanandi.medium.com/where-in- ... 556dfc4178
The Buddhist Northern axial mountain Sumeru is matched by Kumeru to the south or underside of the globe, and Akkadian garsag-babarra corresponds to the antithetical garsag-gigga. The Indic Mount Meru is sometimes shown inverted and meeting, at a central point, a similar upright mountain rising from the southern pole, 'egg-timer' or 'hour-glass' fashion.
https://books.google.com/books?id=MbcwB ... 1&lpg=PA41
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:19 pm Also, Sumeru is allegedly made of gold. I don't know if Sumeru being gold is from the Buddha's time or not though.


It's not from the Buddha's time, it's from the Mahabharata. Anyway, Sumeru is said to be invisible to human beings who don't have divine vision.
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:19 pmSimilarly, I've never heard the Buddha speak of the lake of fire, only ever hearing of it in the loka divisions of sectarian Abhidharma texts.
I didn't write about the lake of fire. Perhaps you mean:
Assaji wrote: Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:29 am Effulgent as the morning sun, it is like fire without smoke.
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:19 pm Something else coming to mind is the 84,000 yojanas, which can be calculated to just over a lightyear -- the magnatic field does not extend so far AFAIK (EDIT: I messed up my math. 84,000 yojanas is 3.4 lightyears -- either way, 84,000 is a sacred number and thus is unlikely to be accurate).
Yes, it's not accurate, just an ancient way of saying "huge".
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:19 pm Also there is the issue of Indra's palace. Is this some kind of energy structure in the electromagnetism? Is Indra now a magnetism-based being (he is a thunder god, after all...)?
I don't know.
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:19 pm Similarly, your theory in your thread on the four continents about the civilization on Uttarakuru being Mesoamerica is problematized by the Kurukshetra War. Is this now a historical conflict between Mesoamericans and Indians? I won't pretend that my theories of things like parallel dimensions have all the answers, this s just what comes to mind.
Both parties which fought in the Kurukshetra war, Kauravas and Pandavas, were descendants of the King Kuru, who ruled on the banks of the Sarasvati river. So they both are from Jambudīpa continent.
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by Coëmgenu »

Well, we could go tit for tat and I could nitpick everything I find a bit questionable, like for instance is Kumeru an actual Buddhist tradition? I've never heard or read about it, but that doesn't mean it's not a thing. But I'm not that invested in being the sour-faced contrarian who just says "Nope" between pursed lips while never contributing any theories of his own. I do think the Kurus in the Mahābhārata are ultimately from Uttarakuru, so the details of their peoples' former immigration to India are the new goalposts. With regards to the fire lake:
Assaji wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:17 amIt is only when his words were transmitted for centuries over the "broken telephone" that the incredible details of four seas of diverse materials (milk, water, fire, etc.) appeared
But this is you quoting me. I was just wanting to confirm that I don't think the fire lake comes from the suttas AFAIK, as I am the one who volunteered the example of the lake of fire. Unless it does come from the suttas or what have you, in which case it would likely be a distorted memory of ancient volcanism.

The only significant source text I can find for Kumeru is a medieval Hindu Advaita text called the Yogavasistha of Valmiki (search "Lokāloka" on verse 27 of that page. Lokāloka is the mountain of light between loka and aloka that gives illumination to the sun and moon in some late stage Vedic cosmoi).

I can't view the Google Books you linked to. What is it?
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sun Dec 06, 2020 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by Coëmgenu »

I would really recommend checking out that Hindu text, if just for casual reading. I've been reading it and it is really interesting. Verse 6 in the same loka-describing vision I linked to before: "The earth like a lotus is situated on the surface of the waters of the ocean, which make it shake at times, and cause the earthquake by their motion."

Familiar?

:reading:
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by Assaji »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:17 pm I can't view the Google Books you linked to. What is it?
You should be able to read an overview of this book at:

https://books.google.com/books?id=MbcwBwAAQBAJ
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

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Astronomical or geophysical realities are woven like invisible threads throughout the preceding narrative. For example, the cosmic mountain, Mount Meru, is conceived as the axis of the earth. The Khmers knew the earth was a round sphere moving through space because they had inherited that knowledge from India, where it was first recorded in the sixth century CE. The gods reside at the north celestial pole, including the summit of Mount Meru - the location of Indra's royal palace. The summit has been flattened to accommodate the palace. At the south celestial pole, on the opposite end of Mount Meru, are the asuras. When Mount Mandara is used as a churning pivot, the gods pull the pivot to the north and the asuras pull it to the south, creating a north-south oscillation. This accounts for the north-south oscillation of the sun and moon each year, while the axis of the earth, Mount Meru, remains stable (precession notwithstanding, "stable" is a good descriptive word for the axis in comparison to the oscillation of the sun and moon).
https://web.archive.org/web/20110808212 ... ngkor.html
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by Coëmgenu »

Assaji wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:55 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:17 pm I can't view the Google Books you linked to. What is it?
You should be able to read an overview of this book at:

https://books.google.com/books?id=MbcwBwAAQBAJ
Something must be wrong with my browser, because I'm getting the message that my free preview isn't of those pages. I'm sure it will let me read eventually.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Pali Terms: Uttarakuru, Pubbavideha, Aparagoyāna, continents

Post by User13866 »

Assaji wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2010 6:54 pm
According to Sattasuriya sutta (AN 4.99):

‘‘Sineru, bhikkhave, pabbatarājā caturāsītiyojanasahassāni āyāmena, caturāsītiyojanasahassāni vitthārena, caturāsītiyojanasahassāni mahāsamudde ajjhogāḷho, caturāsītiyojanasahassāni mahāsamuddā accuggato."

"Sineru, o monks, the king of the mountains, is 84000 yojanas high from the sea level, 84000 yojanas wide, 84000 yojanas deep in the great ocean."
Here a few more references to Sineru, the king of mountains

what is in Questions of King Milinda;
'Though the world of gods and men, Sir, were to be destroyed, though the sun and moon were to fall upon the earth, though Sineru the king of mountains were to be dissolved, yet would not Sâriputta the Elder have consented to any pain being inflicted on a fellow creature.
[...]
And as the water on which it rests 1 was troubled and agitated, then the broad earth began to shake, and with it the mountain ranges and the ocean depths, [118] and Sineru began to revolve, and its rocky mountain crest became twisted. And at the trembling of the earth, the serpents, and mungooses, and cats, and jackals, and boars, and deer, and birds became greatly distressed, and the Yakkhas of inferior power wept, while those of greater power were merry.
https://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe35/sbe3512.htm

24. 'And the Tathâgata, O king, was not disturbed by that temporary inconvenience (of the falling rain). Just, O king, as Sineru, the king of the mountains, moves not, neither is shaken, by the onslaught of innumerable gales 1--just as the mighty ocean, the home of the great waters, is not filled up, neither is disturbed at all, by the inflow of innumerable great rivers--just so, O king, is a Tathâgata unmoved at temporary inconvenience.
https://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe36/sbe3603.htm

The ocean is mighty, and it is only one. Sineru, the king of the mountains, is great; and it is only one. Space is mighty, and it is only one. Sakka (the king of the gods) is great, and he is only one. Mara (the Evil One, Death) is great, and he is only one. Mahâ-Brahmâ is mighty, and he is only one.
https://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe36/sbe3604.htm
Also this Jain text says it's a place reached by elephants;
“One day, Daśagrīva went to Mount Meru, riding an elephant, accompanied by his wives, to pay homage to the shrines
https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/khara#jainism
It's also in the discourse of seven suns
Then at last, after another lapse of time, a sixth sun appears; whereupon this great earth and Sineru, the monarch of mountains, reek and fume and send forth clouds of smoke. Even as a potter's baking, when first besmeared, doth reek and fume and smoke, such is the smoke of earth and mountains when the sixth sun appears.

After a last vast interval, a seventh sun appears, and then, monks, this great earth, and Sineru, the monarch of mountains, flare and blaze, and become one mass of flame. And now, from earth and mountains burning and consuming, a spark is carried by the wind and goes as far as the worlds of God; and the peaks of Mount Sineru, burning, consuming, perishing, go down in one vast mass of fire and crumble for an hundred, yea, five hundred leagues. And of this great earth, monks, and Sineru, the monarch of mountains, when consumed and burnt, neither ashes nor soot remains. Just as when ghee or oil is consumed and burnt, monks, neither ashes nor soot remains, so it is with the great earth and Mount Sineru.

Thus, monks, impermanent are the constituents of existence, unstable, non-eternal: so much so, that this alone is enough to weary and disgust one with all constituent things and emancipate therefrom. Therefore, monks, do those who deliberate and believe1 say this: 'This earth and Sineru, the monarch of mountains, will be burnt and perish and exist no more,' excepting those who have seen the path
https://www.sacred-texts.com/journals/oc/gppt6.htm
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