DNS wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:48 pm
User13866 wrote: ↑Sun Jul 03, 2022 2:39 pm
I suspect that it is like this for sotapannas, they don't kill and they don't want beings to get killed but i wouldn't be surprised if it's possible. Why? Because it's not stated to be an impossibility like matricide, patricide and other heineous crimes which one can not be rehabilitated from.
What about the Sutta references of "unbroken precepts . . ." etc?
"
Bhikkhus, a noble disciple who possesses four things is a stream-enterer, . . . He possesses the virtues dear to the noble ones, unbroken." Samyutta Nikaya 55.2
I think that this isn't about the precepts.
The notion of 'breaking' a precept is afaik an english expression and doesn't occur in the pali.
If i recall correctly the term 'unbroken' otherwise occurs in regards to things like 'an unbroken tradition' and 'an unbroken colt [as in untamed horse]', there might others but i haven't seen it in regards to the training rules which are said to be transgressed rather than broken.
Furthermore it can be established that the keeping of precept is one thing and those 'virtues dear to noble ones' on account of which they praise eachother, is another thing.
The keeping of precepts is rather a trifling & minor thing on account of which the run-off-the-mill ordinary person might extoll ariya.
DN1
"It is, bhikkhus, only to
trifling and insignificant matters, to the minor details of mere moral virtue,
that a worldling would refer when speaking in praise of the Tathāgata. And what are those trifling and insignificant matters, those minor details of mere moral virtue, to which he would refer?
8. "'Having abandoned the destruction of life, the recluse Gotama abstains from the destruction of life. He has laid aside the rod and the sword, and dwells conscientious, full of kindness, compassionate for the welfare of all living beings.' It is in this way, bhikkhus, that the worldling would speak when speaking in praise of the Tathāgata.
"Or he might say: 'Having abandoned taking what is not given, the recluse Gotama abstains from taking what is not given. Accepting and expecting only what is given, he dwells in honesty and rectitude of heart.'
"Or he might say: 'Having abandoned unchaste living, the recluse Gotama lives the life of chastity. He dwells remote (from women), and abstains from the vulgar practice of sexual intercourse.'
9. "Or he might say: 'Having abandoned false speech, the recluse Gotama abstains from falsehood. He speaks only the truth, he lives devoted to truth; trustworthy and reliable, he does not deceive anyone in the world.'
There are other virtues, which are comprehensible by wise people and on account of which the wise would praise one.
There are, bhikkhus, other dhammas, deep, difficult to see, difficult to understand, peaceful and sublime, beyond the sphere of reasoning, subtle, comprehensible only to the wise, which the Tathāgata, having realized for himself with direct knowledge, propounds to others; and it is concerning these that those who would rightly praise the Tathāgata in accordance with reality would speak.
A run-off-the-mill can't even comprehend anything other than the trifling things let alone praise one for them.
The keeping of pecepts is one thing and those virtues are another.
It is also evident here
Gihi Sutta
So the Blessed One said to Ven. Sāriputta: “Sāriputta, when you know of a householder clothed in white, that he is restrained in terms of the five training rules and that he obtains at will, without difficulty, without hardship, four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now, then if he wants he may state about himself: ‘Hell is ended for me; animal wombs are ended; the state of the hungry ghosts is ended; planes of deprivation, the bad destinations, the lower realms are ended! I am a stream-winner, never again destined for the lower realms, certain, headed for self-awakening!’
“Now, in terms of which five training rules is he restrained?
“There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones abstains from taking life, abstains from taking what is not given, abstains from sexual misconduct, abstains from lying, abstains from distilled & fermented drinks that cause heedlessness.
“These are the five training rules in terms of which he is restrained.
“And which four pleasant mental abidings in the here & now does he obtain at will, without difficulty, without hardship?
“There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones is endowed with verified confidence in the Awakened One: ‘Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy & rightly self-awakened, consummate in clear-knowing & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the cosmos, unexcelled trainer of people fit to be tamed, teacher of devas & human beings, awakened, blessed.’ This is the first pleasant mental abiding in the here & now that he has attained, for the purification of the mind that is impure, for the cleansing of the mind that is unclean.
“And further, he is endowed with verified confidence in the Dhamma: ‘The Dhamma is well taught by the Blessed One, to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be experienced by the observant for themselves.’ This is the second pleasant mental abiding in the here & now that he has attained, for the purification of the mind that is impure, for the cleansing of the mind that is unclean.
“And further, he is endowed with verified confidence in the Saṅgha: ‘The Saṅgha of the Blessed One’s disciples who have practiced well…who have practiced straight-forwardly…who have practiced methodically…who have practiced masterfully—in other words, the four pairs, the eight individuals1—they are the Saṅgha of the Blessed One’s disciples: deserving of gifts, deserving of hospitality, deserving of offerings, deserving of respect, the incomparable field of merit for the world.’ This is the third pleasant mental abiding in the here & now that he has attained, for the purification of the mind that is impure, for the cleansing of the mind that is unclean.
“And further, he is endowed with virtues that are appealing to the noble ones: untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the observant, ungrasped at, leading to concentration.
These are two different things as i see it.