Can an Arhat regress?

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Bunks
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Can an Arhat regress?

Post by Bunks »

Hello folks!

I recently heard a Mahayana teacher state in a talk that an Arhat can regress to the lower realms in the next life?

This was not my understanding.

Can someone confirm if they are correct?

Thanks very much!
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Can an Arhat regress?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

No, they have no more lives, in this world or the next. That's one of the defining features of an Arhat.
But in the Mahayana view, all bets are off, they have a very different (wrong?) idea of Arhat.
SarathW
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Re: Can an Arhat regress?

Post by SarathW »

According to Mahayana, only Buddha will not regress.
So they all are trying to be future Buddha.
For them, the Nibbana is an existing reality where past Buddhas live.

According to Theravada Arahant is a similar state to Buddha but Arahant will not have the same calibar.
It is like we don't have to be Einstein to split the atom or to understand e=mc2
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Bunks
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Re: Can an Arhat regress?

Post by Bunks »

Thank you
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asahi
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Re: Can an Arhat regress?

Post by asahi »

Forgotten which sutta but it does say so and regress several times .
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BrokenBones
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Re: Can an Arhat regress?

Post by BrokenBones »

asahi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:09 am Forgotten which sutta but it does say so and regress several times .
You can't forget what isn't there... sutra maybe?
SarathW
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Re: Can an Arhat regress?

Post by SarathW »

Bunks wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:29 am Hello folks!

I recently heard a Mahayana teacher state in a talk that an Arhat can regress to the lower realms in the next life?

This was not my understanding.

Can someone confirm if they are correct?

Thanks very much!
According to Theravada evn a Sotapanna can not be regress.
Sotapanna is assured Nibbana within seven lives.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
asahi
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Re: Can an Arhat regress?

Post by asahi »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:13 am You can't forget what isn't there... sutra maybe?
Now on that occasion the Venerable Godhika was dwelling on the Black Rock on the Isigili Slope. Then, while the Venerable Godhika was dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, he reached temporary liberation of mind, but he fell away from that temporary liberation of mind. A second time, while the Venerable Godhika was dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, he reached temporary liberation of mind, but he fell away from that temporary liberation of mind. A third time…A fourth time … A fifth time…A sixth time, while the Venerable Godhika was dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, he reached temporary liberation of mind, but he fell away from that temporary liberation of mind. A seventh time, while the Venerable Godhika was dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, he reached temporary liberation of mind.

......

Now on that occasion a cloud of smoke, a swirl of darkness, was moving to the east, then to the west, to the north, to the south, upwards, downwards, and to the intermediate quarters. The Blessed One then addressed the bhikkhus thus: “Do you see, bhikkhus, that cloud of smoke, that swirl of darkness, moving to the east, then to the west, to the north, to the south, upwards, downwards, and to the intermediate quarters?”

“Yes, venerable sir.”

“That, bhikkhus, is Mara the Evil One searching for the consciousness of the clansman Godhika, wondering: ‘Where now has the consciousness of the clansman Godhika been established?’ However, bhikkhus, with consciousness unestablished, the clansman Godhika has attained final Nibbāna.”
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Alino
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Re: Can an Arhat regress?

Post by Alino »

I heared that from Anagami level beings cannot regress, and it seems exact because Sotapanna can fall from heven realm to humain realm, Sakadagami also can fall once again, but Anagami only goes futher even if it means going through all levels of Pure Abodes...

Imho
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Can an Arhat regress?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

asahi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:48 am
Venerable Godhika .... reached temporary liberation of mind, but he fell away from that temporary liberation of mind
https://suttacentral.net/sn4.23/en/bodhi
Venerable Godhika attained nibbãna only in the moment he used the knife and killed himself.
He wasn't an Arhat until then.

As far as I remember, "temporary liberation of mind" is not nibbãna, it's jhana or the brahmaviharas.
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Re: Can an Arhat regress?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Bunks wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:29 am Hello folks!

I recently heard a Mahayana teacher state in a talk that an Arhat can regress to the lower realms in the next life?

This was not my understanding.

Can someone confirm if they are correct?

Thanks very much!
Mahayana and Theravada have different hierarchies, and different assumptions.
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Re: Can an Arhat regress?

Post by SteRo »

Bunks wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:29 am Hello folks!

I recently heard a Mahayana teacher state in a talk that an Arhat can regress to the lower realms in the next life?

This was not my understanding.

Can someone confirm if they are correct?

Thanks very much!
Many mahayanists don't care about theravada doctrine. Often they invent ideas to make the "small vehicle" (how they call it) look really "small" and flawed. Propaganda.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Can an Arhat regress?

Post by Sam Vara »

Bunks wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 6:29 am Hello folks!

I recently heard a Mahayana teacher state in a talk that an Arhat can regress to the lower realms in the next life?

This was not my understanding.

Can someone confirm if they are correct?

Thanks very much!
Here is Bhikkhu Pesala from his new book The War on Error:
Dhamma and non-dhamma are farther apart than the sky and the earth. It is vital that one studies the Dhamma carefully and rightly understands, “This is the teaching of the Buddha,” or “This is not the teaching of the Buddha.” If one firmly accepts non-dhamma as Dhamma, one will accumulate a great deal of unwholesome kamma defending that wrong-view, and criticising those who hold right-views.

For example, the Dalai Lama says, “Those Arahants who have conquered the disturbing emotions are in a temporary state. They have not attained a final state. Due to the remaining obscurations they regard body and speech as ‘mine.’ Even though they are no longer motivated by disturbing emotions, the cognitive obscuration, which is a sense of a self, an ‘I’ and ‘mine’ manifests in their physical and verbal activities. Their conquests and achievements for their own sake are temporary. They are not capable of benefiting others ultimately.”

This teaching — which originates from the Mahāyāna Sutras — is non-dhamma. It is diametrically opposed to the teachings in the Tipiṭaka that the Arahants have reached the final goal, and done what should be done.
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Re: Can an Arhat regress?

Post by BrokenBones »

asahi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:48 am
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:13 am You can't forget what isn't there... sutra maybe?
Now on that occasion the Venerable Godhika was dwelling on the Black Rock on the Isigili Slope. Then, while the Venerable Godhika was dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, he reached temporary liberation of mind, but he fell away from that temporary liberation of mind. A second time, while the Venerable Godhika was dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, he reached temporary liberation of mind, but he fell away from that temporary liberation of mind. A third time…A fourth time … A fifth time…A sixth time, while the Venerable Godhika was dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, he reached temporary liberation of mind, but he fell away from that temporary liberation of mind. A seventh time, while the Venerable Godhika was dwelling diligent, ardent, and resolute, he reached temporary liberation of mind.

......

Now on that occasion a cloud of smoke, a swirl of darkness, was moving to the east, then to the west, to the north, to the south, upwards, downwards, and to the intermediate quarters. The Blessed One then addressed the bhikkhus thus: “Do you see, bhikkhus, that cloud of smoke, that swirl of darkness, moving to the east, then to the west, to the north, to the south, upwards, downwards, and to the intermediate quarters?”

“Yes, venerable sir.”

“That, bhikkhus, is Mara the Evil One searching for the consciousness of the clansman Godhika, wondering: ‘Where now has the consciousness of the clansman Godhika been established?’ However, bhikkhus, with consciousness unestablished, the clansman Godhika has attained final Nibbāna.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn4.23/en/bodhi
Utter nonsense... he wasn't an Arahant until the end. Why bother peddling Mahayana adhamma on a Theravada site?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Can an Arhat regress?

Post by Coëmgenu »

The retrogradability of certain classes of Arhats was a doctrine held by Sarvāstivādins, Mahāsāṃghikas, and some other sects that I can't be bothered to look up and find right now. It has never been a Theravādin doctrine AFAIK. Mahāyāna inherits this narrative from those sect who believed in certain classes of Arhats that are subject to possible retrogression.
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