I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

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asahi
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by asahi »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:36 am the duality of observer v. observed.
It happens that the observed is the observer . You look at an epal , an image of epal appear at the interior of eyes , your brain identify it and says it is an epal . What you sees is just an inner vision .
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Spiny Norman
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:07 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 5:36 am the duality of observer v. observed.
It happens that the observed is the observer . You look at an epal , an image of epal appear at the interior of eyes , your brain identify it and says it is an epal . What you sees is just an inner vision .
Sure, what you "see" is a mental representation of stuff "out there".
But this doesn't change the fact that mindfulness involves observation, and that observation implies an observer, and things to be observed.
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asahi
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by asahi »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:46 am Sure, what you "see" is a mental representation of stuff "out there".
But this doesn't change the fact that mindfulness involves observation, and that observation implies an observer, and things to be observed.
Your mind try to split it into the observer and the observed which isnt the actual case .
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Spiny Norman
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:50 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:46 am Sure, what you "see" is a mental representation of stuff "out there".
But this doesn't change the fact that mindfulness involves observation, and that observation implies an observer, and things to be observed.
Your mind try to split it into the observer and the observed which isnt the actual case .
I don't agree. If you're looking for example at a tree, it's pretty obvious that you are separate from the tree.
So here the mind is correctly drawing a distinction between you (observer) and tree (observed). If the mind didn't draw these distinctions, you couldn't function.
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asahi
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by asahi »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:58 am I don't agree. If you're looking for example at a tree, it's pretty obvious that you are separate from the tree.
So here the mind is correctly drawing a distinction between you (observer) and tree (observed). If the mind didn't draw these distinctions, you couldn't function.
Exactly , thats why i said your mind separated the tree from yourself , but , as you observe , the thought of your mind havent come into the picture yet , that particular moment the observer is the observed , pls ponder on it deeply .
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 8:21 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 7:58 am I don't agree. If you're looking for example at a tree, it's pretty obvious that you are separate from the tree.
So here the mind is correctly drawing a distinction between you (observer) and tree (observed). If the mind didn't draw these distinctions, you couldn't function.
Exactly , thats why i said your mind separated the tree from yourself , but , as you observe , the thought of your mind havent come into the picture yet , that particular moment the observer is the observed , pls ponder on it deeply .
I don't follow. The mind is automatically making the observer/observed distinction, without the need for thoughts.
Thinking is just commentary.
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pegembara
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by pegembara »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:57 pm
asahi wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:25 pm It is the thought that is observing and knowing .
How so? A thought can be observed, but does not itself observe - it's a subject, not an object.
And of course most observing is done without the need for thoughts. Thoughts are a sort of internal commentary about what we observe.
A thought once observed becomes an object. Anything observed is not the subject. Hence the five aggregates are not self when properly observed.



§ 27. [Rādha:] "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is one said to be 'a being'?"

[The Buddha:] "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Rādha: when one is caught up [satta] there, tied up [visatta] there, one is said to be 'a being [satta].'

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling… perception… fabrications…

"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Rādha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being.'"

— SN 23.2
Last edited by pegembara on Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by Spiny Norman »

pegembara wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:44 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:57 pm
asahi wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:25 pm It is the thought that is observing and knowing .
How so? A thought can be observed, but does not itself observe - it's a subject, not an object.
And of course most observing is done without the need for thoughts. Thoughts are a sort of internal commentary about what we observe.
A thought once observed becomes an object. Anything observed is not the subject. Hence the five aggregates are not self when properly observed.
Agreed, but there is still the question of who or what is observing the aggregates in this way.
To put it another way, what is the observer exactly?
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cappuccino
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by cappuccino »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:49 pm there is still the question of who or what is observing the aggregates in this way.
self view

:coffee:
pegembara
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by pegembara »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:49 pm
pegembara wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:44 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 3:57 pm

How so? A thought can be observed, but does not itself observe - it's a subject, not an object.
And of course most observing is done without the need for thoughts. Thoughts are a sort of internal commentary about what we observe.
A thought once observed becomes an object. Anything observed is not the subject. Hence the five aggregates are not self when properly observed.
Agreed, but there is still the question of who or what is observing the aggregates in this way.
To put it another way, what is the observer exactly?
You asked the wrong question and expect an answer. You keep stepping back and can never find the observer. The closest answer is that the observer is just a construction or sankhara.

There’s seeing but what is actually doing the seeing? Nothing but seeing happens when the right conditions are present.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by pegembara »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:51 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:49 pm there is still the question of who or what is observing the aggregates in this way.
self view

:coffee:
Reasonable answer
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by Spiny Norman »

pegembara wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:12 pm
cappuccino wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:51 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:49 pm there is still the question of who or what is observing the aggregates in this way.
self view

:coffee:
Reasonable answer
Self-view is an assumption. How could an assumption observe the aggregates?
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cappuccino
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by cappuccino »

Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:35 pm Self-view is an assumption. How could an assumption observe the aggregates?
who or what observes the aggregates


that perspective is self view
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by Spiny Norman »

pegembara wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:11 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:49 pm
pegembara wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 12:44 pm

A thought once observed becomes an object. Anything observed is not the subject. Hence the five aggregates are not self when properly observed.
Agreed, but there is still the question of who or what is observing the aggregates in this way.
To put it another way, what is the observer exactly?
You asked the wrong question and expect an answer. You keep stepping back and can never find the observer. The closest answer is that the observer is just a construction or sankhara.

There’s seeing but what is actually doing the seeing? Nothing but seeing happens when the right conditions are present.
How does a sankhara observe the aggregates? Please explain.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
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Re: I’m having problems letting go of self view can you guys help.

Post by Spiny Norman »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:36 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:35 pm Self-view is an assumption. How could an assumption observe the aggregates?
who or what observes the aggregates


that perspective is self view
No, it's a reasonable question which you seen incapable of answering.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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