Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by mikenz66 »

The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga with Sujato Bhikkhu
July 13 @ 7:30 pm - 8:30 pm PDT
Wednesdays, July 13, 20, 27, and August 3 at 7:30-8:30pm PDT (UTC -7)

Please register to receive Zoom link and other information about this course.

The Sutta Nipata culminates with a moving series of questions from sixteen brahmins to the Buddha, wrapped in a devotional narrative. It is unique in its literary form and emotional impact, and the questions by the brahmin students reveal them to be advanced practitioners with a sincere desire to learn. The chapter is quoted in the Suttas themselves, and remains a touchstone to this day. In this course, Bhante Sujato will read and comment from his own translation. The course aims to convey both the emotional uplift and incisive analysis of this foundational work.

https://suttacentral.net/snp-parayanavagga?view=dense

This class is free to attend and everyone is welcome.

https://sati.org/event/the-way-to-the-b ... 022-07-13/
The announcement here: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/bh ... agga/25417 will display the time in your local time zone.

The Pārāyanavagga, the fifth chapter of the Sutta Nipata, is a deep collection of discourses, some of which are discussed in detail in Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda Nibbana Sermons: https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
There are recent translations by Bhikkhu Bodhi (published by Wisdom), Bhikkhu Sujato (on Sutta Central), and Ven. Ñāṇadīpa Mahāthera https://pathpress.org/new-the-silent-sages-of-old-pdf/

Bhikkhu Sujato previously discussed the Aṭṭhakavagga, the fourth chapter here: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/se ... agga/21896

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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

Do you know if the course is being recorded for the benefit of those unable to attend due to work, sleep, or other commitments?

I had a quick look at the links but didn't find the answer to this question.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by nirodh27 »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 6:04 am Greetings Mike,

Do you know if the course is being recorded for the benefit of those unable to attend due to work, sleep, or other commitments?

I had a quick look at the links but didn't find the answer to this question.

Metta,
Paul. :)
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/se ... agga/21896

I think that the course will be uploaded here, it seems that the octads were already touched and they were uploaded here.

Btw if someone can share more information it will be really useful, I cannot partecipate online, but I would gladly take a look since I think that octads and the way to the beyond are the oldest strata and the essence of the Dhamma.
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 6:04 am Greetings Mike,

Do you know if the course is being recorded for the benefit of those unable to attend due to work, sleep, or other commitments?

I had a quick look at the links but didn't find the answer to this question.

Metta,
Paul. :)
There seem to be recordings of other events. From the links on the site: https://sati.org/
Audio: https://sati.audiodharma.org/series
Video: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWONvO ... MUQ/videos

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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by frank k »

Anyone participating in that, please ask Sujato about his translation and interpretation of kāya in Snp 5.
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... ities.html
I checked his latest translation, it's still incoherent. (wrt his 3rd jhāna translation of kāya)

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 9:28 pm
The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga with Sujato Bhikkhu
July 13 @ 7:30 pm - 8:30 pm PDT
Wednesdays, July 13, 20, 27, and August 3 at 7:30-8:30pm PDT (UTC -7)

Please register to receive Zoom link and other information about this course.

The Sutta Nipata culminates with a moving series of questions from sixteen brahmins to the Buddha, wrapped in a devotional narrative. It is unique in its literary form and emotional impact, and the questions by the brahmin students reveal them to be advanced practitioners with a sincere desire to learn. The chapter is quoted in the Suttas themselves, and remains a touchstone to this day. In this course, Bhante Sujato will read and comment from his own translation. The course aims to convey both the emotional uplift and incisive analysis of this foundational work.

https://suttacentral.net/snp-parayanavagga?view=dense

This class is free to attend and everyone is welcome.

https://sati.org/event/the-way-to-the-b ... 022-07-13/
The announcement here: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/bh ... agga/25417 will display the time in your local time zone.

The Pārāyanavagga, the fifth chapter of the Sutta Nipata, is a deep collection of discourses, some of which are discussed in detail in Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda Nibbana Sermons: https://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/
There are recent translations by Bhikkhu Bodhi (published by Wisdom), Bhikkhu Sujato (on Sutta Central), and Ven. Ñāṇadīpa Mahāthera https://pathpress.org/new-the-silent-sages-of-old-pdf/

Bhikkhu Sujato previously discussed the Aṭṭhakavagga, the fourth chapter here: https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/se ... agga/21896

:heart:
Mike
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Frank,

Here's the current translation, if readers have trouble figuring out what you are referring to (as I did):
https://suttacentral.net/snp5.15/en/suj ... ript=latin
Screenshot from 2022-07-15 09-06-58.png

https://suttacentral.net/snp5.7/en/suja ... ript=latin
Screenshot from 2022-07-15 09-08-57.png
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by frank k »

Hi Mike,
Which part of my article was not clear?
I'm obviously not getting through to a lot of people, since no one else seems to publicly challenge some very gross and undisputable errors from Sujato on his jhāna interpretation, his ambiguation of kāya, vitakka & vicāra.

Especially egregious in Sujato's 3rd jhāna translation, where he takes kāya metaophorically as "he personally experiences".

How kāya in Snp 5 is being used, shows that the Buddha would have used 'nāma-kāya' (mental body) instead of 'kāya' (which by default is rūpa-kāya in the jhāna context if he wanted to refer to the mind divorced from the physical body.
Or he could have referred to 3rd jhāna as 'somanassa' instead of sukha, or any number of obvious ways talk about mental pleasure (as opposed to physical pleasure originating from the physical body).

Also not mentioned in my article, Snp 5.14 is the sutta right before Snp 5.15.
Suttas in sequence often show an important relationship to each other.
Snp 5.14 is all about the 4 jhānas.
Snp 5.15 is all about the formless attainments, especially dimension of nothingness (the highest perception attainment).
If The Buddha talks about abandoning the rūpa physical body in Snp 5.15, instead of Snp 5.14, that should be telling you something.

Sujato should be consistent with how he interprets kāya in 3rd jhāna in Snp 5.15.
If "personal experience" is what 'kāya' is in the 3rd jhāna formula, then Snp 5.15 should read, "he completely abandons the mental body of personal experience", which would be ridiculous, since the dimension of nothingness still has a mental body, and perception of mental experience.

Snp 5 is entirely dealing with 16 jhāna meditators, many of whom also have formless attainments.
And when given a chance to show the 4 jhānas as a frozen disembodied stupor as Vism., Brahm, Sujato claim, in Snp 5.14, the most detailed sutta of the 16 in that chapter on 4 jhānas, the Buddha doesn't suggest anything like that at all.

mikenz66 wrote: Thu Jul 14, 2022 9:11 pm Hi Frank,

Here's the current translation, if readers have trouble figuring out what you are referring to (as I did):
https://suttacentral.net/snp5.15/en/suj ... ript=latin
Screenshot from 2022-07-15 09-06-58.png


https://suttacentral.net/snp5.7/en/suja ... ript=latin
Screenshot from 2022-07-15 09-08-57.png

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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by Ceisiwr »

frank k wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:12 am I'm obviously not getting through to a lot of people,
No need to keep beating a dead horse.
“In faith, recollect the immeasurable Buddha!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy.

In faith, recollect the immeasurable Dhamma!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy.

In faith, recollect the immeasurable Saṅgha!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy”


Tekicchakārittheragāthā 6.2
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Frank,
frank k wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:12 am Which part of my article was not clear?
I had to spend a little time to locate the passages you were talking about on SuttaCentral, so I thought it was useful to link to them, along with a screenshot that included Bhikkhu Sujato's notes, in case someone did want to ask about those passages.

It seems that you are in agreement with the translation of those particular passages. Besides, if I look up some of your examples you seem to be in agreement in cases like these:
They drench, steep, fill, and spread their body with rapture and bliss born of seclusion. There’s no part of the body that’s not spread with rapture and bliss born of seclusion.
So imameva kāyaṁ vivekajena pītisukhena abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati, nāssa kiñci sabbāvato kāyassa vivekajena pītisukhena apphuṭaṁ hoti.
https://suttacentral.net/dn2/en/sujato? ... ript=latin
So your disagreement appears to be how the reader should interpret body/kāya in these various texts, not the actual translations.

It's clear that you and Bhikkhu Sujato disagree on that interpretation. But that doesn't seem relevant to the translation choices in these SNP passages.

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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by frank k »

Hi Mike, yes, in SOME passages Sujato translates kāya correctly as 'body', but not in important ones such as this one in 3rd jhāna (and how it relates to the Snp 5)
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... sical.html
Remember, he translated ALL the nikāyas and needs to be held accountable for his translation and interpretation on all the jhāna passages.
I think you're still missing the point of my first article linked, that the fact the Buddha's specific usages of rūpa, kāya in a meditative contexts such as Snp 5, essentially is saying Sujato does not have a license to ambiguate kāya whenever he wants to translate kāya as a mind only personal experience.

It seems you want to avoid confronting Sujato on the issue because Snp 5 happens to be translated correctly (for kāya).
You (or someone participating in his class) should be asking him why he doesn't translate kāya consistently with how he understands it, or why there aren't footnotes (like he does elsewhere) to clarify how he understands jhāna in these contexts.

You are right though, if Sujato was consistent in in translating kāya everywhere as 'body', (especially in 3rd jhāna standard formula), then there would be no reason to criticize his translation on kāya in the jhāna context.

mikenz66 wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 9:39 pm Hi Frank,
frank k wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 11:12 am Which part of my article was not clear?
I had to spend a little time to locate the passages you were talking about on SuttaCentral, so I thought it was useful to link to them, along with a screenshot that included Bhikkhu Sujato's notes, in case someone did want to ask about those passages.

It seems that you are in agreement with the translation of those particular passages. Besides, if I look up some of your examples you seem to be in agreement in cases like these:
They drench, steep, fill, and spread their body with rapture and bliss born of seclusion. There’s no part of the body that’s not spread with rapture and bliss born of seclusion.
So imameva kāyaṁ vivekajena pītisukhena abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati, nāssa kiñci sabbāvato kāyassa vivekajena pītisukhena apphuṭaṁ hoti.
https://suttacentral.net/dn2/en/sujato? ... ript=latin
So your disagreement appears to be how the reader should interpret body/kāya in these various texts, not the actual translations.

It's clear that you and Bhikkhu Sujato disagree on that interpretation. But that doesn't seem relevant to the translation choices in these SNP passages.

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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by frank k »

Something else Sujato probably doesn't teach in his class:

KN Snp 5.1 non Buddhist doing jhana, with 5 hindrances present (while in jhana)
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... -with.html

This would be impossible under Ajahn Brahm and Sujato's understanding of jhāna.
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Frank,

Thank you for explaining further, as it was unclear to me from your original post that you were referring to this:
And with the fading away of rapture, they enter and remain in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’
Pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati sato ca sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṁvedeti, yaṁ taṁ ariyā ācikkhanti: ‘upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī’ti tatiyaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.
https://suttacentral.net/sn45.8/en/suja ... ript=latin
frank k wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 11:12 am It seems you want to avoid confronting Sujato on the issue because Snp 5 happens to be translated correctly (for kāya).
I'm not "avoiding confronting Sujato". That would imply that there was some issue which I understood better than him, and kept silent.

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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by frank k »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:50 pm ...
frank k wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 11:12 am It seems you want to avoid confronting Sujato on the issue because Snp 5 happens to be translated correctly (for kāya).
I'm not "avoiding confronting Sujato". That would imply that there was some issue which I understood better than him, and kept silent.

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Mike

I didn't mean to single you out, I meant the whole Buddhist community.
You don't have to feel like you know something better than the teacher, to raise a question and get them to be accountable, transparent about their translation and interpretation.

Snp 5, along with many other places in KN pe Petakopadesa, DN 2, etc., are unequivocal in showing that the Buddha was aware of the ambiguity of the word 'kāya' in a meditation context, and he was careful to disambiguate and clarify what kāya is meant.

Sujato's mistranslation and misinterpretation of kāya in 3rd jhāna is especially perverse. Where the Buddha was specifically trying to disambiguate 'kāya' there, Sujato uses fallacious reasoning to ambiguate what the Buddha was trying to disambiguate.
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi frank
frank k wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:43 am I didn't mean to single you out, I meant the whole Buddhist community.
You don't have to feel like you know something better than the teacher, to raise a question and get them to be accountable, transparent about their translation and interpretation.
As far as I can tell, Bhikkhu Sujato has been quite transparent about his opinion. Furthermore, on this matter, his opinion appears to be quite consistent with the Classical interpretation of jhana, so most of the Theravada Buddhist Community (or, more accurately, most of those who are concerned about whether the physical body is felt in third jhana) would probably agree with it.

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