Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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frank k
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by frank k »

Being open about sharing one's opinion is different than being transparent in how one arrives at that opinion.
Just because Sujato's opinion on jhāna is popular (and agrees with "classical Theravada", which is quite a different thing than Early Buddhism), doesn't make it right.
I've documented in great detail how Sujato's position on jhāna contradicts EBT suttas. He cherry picks a few EBT's to support his opinion, but is not transparent about why he thinks the scores of EBT suttas that contradict his position don't matter.
"classical theravada" can point to LBT to support their position.
Sujato can not show an internally consistent, coherent body of EBT suttas that support his.
You did post this announcement in Early Buddhism, so it is subject to challenge from an EBT position.
mikenz66 wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:40 pm Hi frank
frank k wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 11:43 am I didn't mean to single you out, I meant the whole Buddhist community.
You don't have to feel like you know something better than the teacher, to raise a question and get them to be accountable, transparent about their translation and interpretation.
As far as I can tell, Bhikkhu Sujato has been quite transparent about his opinion. Furthermore, on this matter, his opinion appears to be quite consistent with the Classical interpretation of jhana, so most of the Theravada Buddhist Community (or, more accurately, most of those who are concerned about whether the physical body is felt in third jhana) would probably agree with it.

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Mike
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frank k
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by frank k »

Do you guys know what a cult is?
It doesn't have to be something obviously evil, like a Satanic cult that sacrifices animals and young children for example.

A very common kind of cult is where followers reflexively agree with the views and opinions of their charismatic and popular teacher without question.
In other words, cult followers tend to turn off their critical thinking and ability to reason, and adopt their teacher's position without question.
Often insisting that they are using independent thinking, denying that they're turned off their logic and reasoning skills.

Even in science, even in religions where critical thinking is valued and essential, there are plenty of cults and cult like behavior.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Sn 5.4 wrote:You ask me
the source of stress.
I’ll tell it to you
as one who discerns.
From acquisition as cause
the many forms of stress
come into being in the world.
Whoever, unknowing,
makes acquisitions
—the dullard—
comes to stress
again & again.
Therefore, discerning,
you shouldn’t create acquisitions
as you stay focused on
the birth & origin of stress.
:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
thomaslaw
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by thomaslaw »

Critical thinking is certainly essential in the studies in Early Buddhism based on EBTs.
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Johann
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by Johann »

Yet, the way to the beyond requires Saddha (surrender), firm faith, devotio,n respect in the teacher, his teachings and heirs followed it. Outsider lead on roads in the world. Not knowing beyond, to where would one lead?

Right thinking, right view, leads toward beyond, grasped with proper attention.

Alone such as "early Buddhism" shows lack of faith, does simply ignore the basic quality of the good Dhamma of being/doing timeless, and does/is either right or wrong.

How well-versed an outsider might be, he is incapable of getting the point, path and incapable to lead on it.

Ven. Theras of the past already gave whole chapters of KN to try to elevate Snp. Better and of more respect if one would give translations of them toward the Sangha dedicated, and not as usual for a living...

Such would already be a sign of firm faith, of acting time-independent and in ways of Dhamma-Vinaya.
thomaslaw
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by thomaslaw »

Johann wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 3:17 pm Alone such as "early Buddhism" shows lack of faith, does simply ignore the basic quality of the good Dhamma of being/doing timeless, and does/is either right or wrong.
Remember to practice "Right Speech" for "Early Buddhism" based on EBTs, particularly Samyutta (Samyukta) Buddhism.

:buddha1: :reading: :candle:
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Johann
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by Johann »

Tissa-metteyya's Questions

[Tissa-metteyya:]
Who
here in the world
is contented?
Who
has no agitations?
What thinker
knowing both sides,
doesn't adhere in between?
Whom
do you call a great person?
Who here
has gone past
the seamstress:
craving.

[The Buddha:]
He who
in the midst of sensualities,
follows the holy life,
always mindful, craving-free;
the monk who is
— through fathoming things —
Unbound:
he has no agitations. He,
the thinker
knowing both sides,
doesn't adhere in between. He
I call a great person. He
here has gone past
the seamstress:
craving.
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mikenz66
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Re: Bhikkhu Sujato: The Way to the Beyond: A Study of the Pārāyanavagga

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 6:04 am Do you know if the course is being recorded for the benefit of those unable to attend due to work, sleep, or other commitments?
Sati Center seems super organised. There was not a talk last week due to illness, but the first talk is already on AudioDharma: https://sati.audiodharma.org/series/16665, which also links to the YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWONvO ... MUQ/videos

The first session was mostly about the framing story of SNP5.1 (generally understood to be a later addition, but there are some interesting things about it) with the aid of a map showing the supposed journey of the questioners. The next three weeks are planned to cover about 1/3 of the 16 questions each.

Bhikkhu Sujato spoke a little about some of this, and the ending homage, last year:
http://www.berrywood.de/mic/archive/mic-2021.html
Scroll down to:
08.10.2021 – Meditation on generosity, guided by Bhante Akāliko. Dhamma talk by Bhante Sujato on his translation of the Sutta Nipata. Story of Bāvari from the Pārāyanavagga (Snp 5): The Way to the Beyond.

:heart:
Mike
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