Sutta quotes derisive to women

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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rekoW
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Sutta quotes derisive to women

Post by rekoW »

I saw on another buddism forum
Jhana4 wrote:
Another person well versed in the suttas spent what must have been hours in making an anti-woman meme he posted that consisted of a number of sutta quotes derisive to women.
I was too scared to ask question at this buddha forum. Everyone there writing same in austria called "wowserism".

Is the above true? Is a number of buddha sutta quotes derisive to women? How many Sutta quotes derisive to women exist? Which are the many sutta quotes derisive to women?
Jack19990101
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Re: Sutta quotes derisive to women

Post by Jack19990101 »

The plausible reason I could think of to look for those particulars, is if you have desire to women form & you are determined to subdue it.

Otherwise you should look for sutta which can help you overcome your fear which sounds rather out of control.
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Johann
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Re: Sutta quotes derisive to women

Post by Johann »

Topics on gender-matters are possible found under "hot" viewforum.php?f=37 here good householder.

Keinerlei Ahnung was "wowserism" bedeuten sollte, und mag wohl Teil der Österreichisch Sprache sein, gute(r) Haushälter (Haushälterin)
dadati
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Re: Sutta quotes derisive to women

Post by dadati »

rekoW wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:50 am I saw on another buddism forum
Jhana4 wrote:
Another person well versed in the suttas spent what must have been hours in making an anti-woman meme he posted that consisted of a number of sutta quotes derisive to women.
I was too scared to ask question at this buddha forum. Everyone there writing same in austria called "wowserism".

Is the above true? Is a number of buddha sutta quotes derisive to women? How many Sutta quotes derisive to women exist? Which are the many sutta quotes derisive to women?
Those are general statements of the wickedness and foolish nature of women (e.g. "Be patient, Venerable Kassapa, women are foolish") but the Buddha also said that there are exceptions, there are some virtuous women as well and some are even better than men...

SN 3.16 Dītu Sutta

At the city of Sāvatthī…

Then King Pasenadi went up to the Buddha, bowed respectfully, and sat down to one side. Then a man went up to the king and whispered in his ear, “Sir, Queen Mallikā has given birth to a daughter.” When this was said, King Pasenadi was disappointed.

Then, knowing that King Pasenadi was disappointed, on that occasion, the Buddha recited these verses:

“Well, great king, some women are better than men,
they are wise, virtuous, loyal to the husband,
and treat relatives very well.

“Great king, when she has a son,
he becomes a hero, the son of such a blessed lady
may even rule the country.”
thomaslaw
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Re: Sutta quotes derisive to women

Post by thomaslaw »

SN 37. Matugama Samyutta (34 suttas) is on destinies of women, which, however, has no corresponding Chinese SA Samyukta.
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rekoW
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Re: Sutta quotes derisive to women

Post by rekoW »

dadati wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:55 am Those are general statements of the wickedness and foolish nature of women (e.g. "Be patient, Venerable Kassapa, women are foolish")
i found this on the internet [viewtopic.php?t=30408] but speaked not by Buddha
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rekoW
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Re: Sutta quotes derisive to women

Post by rekoW »

thomaslaw wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:19 am SN 37. Matugama Samyutta (34 suttas) is on destinies of women, which, however, has no corresponding Chinese SA Samyukta.
Why is this derisive? I find it on internet http://www.suttas.com/chapter-3-matugam ... women.html

It say:
Bhikkhus, when a man possesses five factors he is extremely disagreeable to a woman. What five? He is not handsome, not wealthy, not virtuous; he is lethargic; and he does not beget children. When a man possesses these five factors he is extremely disagreeable to a woman.
It is derisive to men !!!!

It say:
She is without faith, shameless, unafraid of wrongdoing, angry, unwise. When a woman possesses these five qualities she is reborn in a state of misery ... in hell."

She abstains from the destruction of life, abstains from taking what is not given, abstains from sexual misconduct, abstains from false speech, abstains from wine, liquor, and intoxicants that cause negligence. When a woman possesses these five qualities, with the breakup of the body, after death, she is reborn in a good destination, in a heavenly world.
So u think someone angry, shameless, doing wrongdoing, unwise, intoxicants, life destruction, should go to heaven?

It said:
Bhikkhus, there are five powers of a woman. What are the five? The power of beauty, the power of wealth, the power of relatives, ​the power of sons, the power of virtue. These are the five powers of a woman. When a woman possesses these five powers, she dwells confident at home." When a woman possesses these five powers, she abides with her husband under her control.
So having husband udner her control, like wife of Mike66NZ have Mike66NZ under her control, is derisive to women?

It say:
If, bhikkhus, a woman possesses the power of virtue but not the power of wealth, they accommodate her in the family; they do not expel her. If, bhikkhus, a woman possesses the power of virtue but not the power of relatives, they accommodate her in the family; they do not expel her. If, bhikkhus, a woman possesses the power of virtue but not the power of sons, they accommodate her in the family; they do not expel her. These are the five powers of a woman."
So saying virtue is more important than beauty or making sons is derisive to women? How can this be derisive? I say if you think beauty is more important than virtue this is sexual objectifixation.

I saw topic here about a monk in Zew Nealand. I asked if this monk was Woke attacked? Is saying this Matugama Samyutta is Sutta quotes derisive to women another Woke attack? Why is Matugama Samyutta sutta quotes derisive to women? Why? Because it say women doing intoxicants & sexualy mimsocndut & shameless get angry go to hell? :shrug:
thomaslaw
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Re: Sutta quotes derisive to women

Post by thomaslaw »

The Pali text (Matugama Samyutta) on women is obviously not come from the First Council. The collection does not have any Chinese SA counterpart at all. So, it is likely that the Buddha did not teach that on women!

:buddha1: :reading: :candle:
thomaslaw
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Re: Sutta quotes derisive to women

Post by thomaslaw »

rekoW wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:48 am
dadati wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 5:55 am Those are general statements of the wickedness and foolish nature of women (e.g. "Be patient, Venerable Kassapa, women are foolish")
i found this on the internet [viewtopic.php?t=30408] but speaked not by Buddha
Good to mention this site discussions; e.g., it mentions:

" Choong Mun-keat. 2017. ‘A comparison of the Pāli and Chinese versions of the Kassapa Saṃyutta, a collection of early Buddhist discourses on the Venerable Kāśyapa’. Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society 27 (2): 295-311.

Particularly pp. 303-304, section (4) "Women are foolish": Ananda's response to Mahakasyapa (SA 1143 = ASA 118 = SN 16.10; cf. SA 1144 = ASA 119 = SN 16.11)

The Chinese version only says 'this' woman (not 'women are foolish') "

:twothumbsup:
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rekoW
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Re: Sutta quotes derisive to women

Post by rekoW »

thomaslaw wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:15 am So, it is likely that the Buddha did not teach that on women!
So, it is likely that the Buddha did not teach that on women should have five abstains and no get angry!
thomaslaw
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Re: Sutta quotes derisive to women

Post by thomaslaw »

rekoW wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:52 am
thomaslaw wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:15 am So, it is likely that the Buddha did not teach that on women!
So, it is likely that the Buddha did not teach that on women should have five abstains and no get angry!
What are the "five abstains" and "angry" on women in EBTs?

:buddha1:
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rekoW
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Re: Sutta quotes derisive to women

Post by rekoW »

thomaslaw wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:30 am What are the "five abstains" and "angry" on women in EBTs?
Five abstains and angry is the Matugama Samyutta scripture you shew me.
She is without faith, shameless, unafraid of wrongdoing, angry, unwise. When a woman possesses these five qualities she is reborn in a state of misery ... in hell."

She abstains from the destruction of life, abstains from taking what is not given, abstains from sexual misconduct, abstains from false speech, abstains from wine, liquor, and intoxicants that cause negligence. When a woman possesses these five qualities, with the breakup of the body, after death, she is reborn in a good destination, in a heavenly world
You said the Buddha do not teach the five abstains because the five abstains is not Chinese.
thomaslaw
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Re: Sutta quotes derisive to women

Post by thomaslaw »

The Pali collection, Matugama Samyutta, does not have any corresponding Chinese SA sutras. It belongs to Veyyakarana/Vyakarana (Tathagata) anga, according to Ven. Yinshun.
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rekoW
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Re: Sutta quotes derisive to women

Post by rekoW »

thomaslaw wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:39 am The Pali collection, Matugama Samyutta, does not have any corresponding Chinese SA sutras. It belongs to Veyyakarana/Vyakarana (Tathagata) anga, according to Ven. Yinshun.
So Buddha said it is OK for woman to get angry, to kill, to steel, to do sexual misconducts, to speak lies & too get drunk and stoned?
thomaslaw
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Re: Sutta quotes derisive to women

Post by thomaslaw »

rekoW wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 3:22 am
thomaslaw wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:39 am The Pali collection, Matugama Samyutta, does not have any corresponding Chinese SA sutras. It belongs to Veyyakarana/Vyakarana (Tathagata) anga, according to Ven. Yinshun.
So Buddha said it is OK for woman to get angry, to kill, to steel, to do sexual misconducts, to speak lies & too get drunk and stoned?
Did he say that OK for woman? :jumping:
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