How does Abhidhamma and Tv Cmy explain removal of thoughts with ānāpānā sati to get into 2nd jhāna?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
BrokenBones
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Re: How does Abhidhamma and Tv Cmy explain removal of thoughts with ānāpānā sati to get into 2nd jhāna?

Post by BrokenBones »

auto wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 2:15 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:44 pm Can you point to one sutta that describes vittaka & vicara as initial & applied 'attention'? I say attention because Buddhaghosa has reinvented 'thinking' as mere attention.
Its the translators and rumors in your case what spread these ideas that he reinvented thinking as mere attention..

It takes 5 seconds to search vitakka in Visuddhimagga,
First search hit,
wrote:Herein, applied thinking (vitakkana) is applied
thought (vitakka); hitting upon, is what is meant.25 It has the characteristic of
directing the mind on to an object (mounting the mind on its object). Its function
is to strike at and thresh—for the meditator is said, in virtue of it, to have the
object struck at by applied thought, threshed by applied thought. It is manifested
as the leading of the mind onto an object.
in case of vicara,
wrote:Sustained thinking (vicaraóa) is sustained
thought (vicára); continued sustainment (anusañcaraóa), is what is meant. It has
the characteristic of continued pressure on (occupation with) the object. Its
function is to keep conascent [mental] states [occupied] with that. It is manifested
as keeping consciousness anchored [on that object].
The term occupied, you can find Sutta for vicara and compare with how Visuddhimagga uses it
https://suttacentral.net/an3.61/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: Seeing a sight with the eye, one is preoccupied with a sight that’s a basis for happiness or sadness or equanimity.
Cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā somanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ rūpaṁ upavicarati domanassaṭṭhāniyaṁ rūpaṁ upavicarati upekkhāṭṭhāniyaṁ rūpaṁ upavicarati,
I could guess most of your BS is because of Ceiswir and other such fellows with the ideas of having senses off concentration.. not sure why you let them mess with your opinion what is written in commentaries.
If the quote from the Visuddhimagga is your idea of thinking & contemplation then good luck with that. The only bs I see is the adherence to an alternative Dhamma presented by Buddhaghosa.
auto
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Re: How does Abhidhamma and Tv Cmy explain removal of thoughts with ānāpānā sati to get into 2nd jhāna?

Post by auto »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:00 pm If the quote from the Visuddhimagga is your idea of thinking & contemplation then good luck with that. The only bs I see is the adherence to an alternative Dhamma presented by Buddhaghosa.
In abhidhamma there is no person, instead there is consciousness rooted in greed, hatred, delusion. Same is with the thinking, it is mental concomitant what accompany the mind.
It isn't words.
BrokenBones
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Re: How does Abhidhamma and Tv Cmy explain removal of thoughts with ānāpānā sati to get into 2nd jhāna?

Post by BrokenBones »

auto wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:10 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:00 pm If the quote from the Visuddhimagga is your idea of thinking & contemplation then good luck with that. The only bs I see is the adherence to an alternative Dhamma presented by Buddhaghosa.
In abhidhamma there is no person, instead there is consciousness rooted in greed, hatred, delusion. Same is with the thinking, it is mental concomitant what accompany the mind.
It isn't words.
And this is why it falls flat on its face as a teaching that is relevant to peoples lives and as a method for liberation. Yes, we all know about not-self but the Buddha taught practically & gradually... he didn't get caught up in inane intellectual games, scholastic trickery or mind numbing lists. You've just answered with a spiel rather address the question... is that your idea of what 'thinking' & 'contemplation' is?
auto
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Re: How does Abhidhamma and Tv Cmy explain removal of thoughts with ānāpānā sati to get into 2nd jhāna?

Post by auto »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:04 pm
auto wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:10 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:00 pm If the quote from the Visuddhimagga is your idea of thinking & contemplation then good luck with that. The only bs I see is the adherence to an alternative Dhamma presented by Buddhaghosa.
In abhidhamma there is no person, instead there is consciousness rooted in greed, hatred, delusion. Same is with the thinking, it is mental concomitant what accompany the mind.
It isn't words.
And this is why it falls flat on its face as a teaching that is relevant to peoples lives and as a method for liberation. Yes, we all know about not-self but the Buddha taught practically & gradually... he didn't get caught up in inane intellectual games, scholastic trickery or mind numbing lists. You've just answered with a spiel rather address the question... is that your idea of what 'thinking' & 'contemplation' is?
For you its mind numbing lists. But not for me, anymore.
I found a working way to make progress before i read Visuddhimagga and Sutta or rather acquired confidence what i already could do and keep at it to get progress out of it. When i tried to read Visuddhimagga i saw it tense with different terms etc and gave up on it after reading one page or so and Sutta were dry and didn't captivate me at all, maybe read one paragraph.
Your disgust towards Visuddhimagga or anything by Buddhagosa is not strange for me, its understandable, it may be too much if have no reference points and interest or thinking you have the best source - in your case Suttas for me it were other sources.

You are clinging to Sutta like its the only source, just study Suttas or whatever you have eyes for. In my case i had system and made progress and could describe details of what to do before i challenge other people practice or what they followed. Im still using that same way of doing progress, and making it faster than ever.

And yes, the Visuddhimagga interpretation of vitakka and vicara is agreeable for me. Thinking that vitakka is mere thinking thoughts in meditation is too little information to form an image how it would make sense in meditation(what i do).
BrokenBones
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Re: How does Abhidhamma and Tv Cmy explain removal of thoughts with ānāpānā sati to get into 2nd jhāna?

Post by BrokenBones »

auto wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:59 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:04 pm
auto wrote: Mon Jul 18, 2022 2:10 pm
In abhidhamma there is no person, instead there is consciousness rooted in greed, hatred, delusion. Same is with the thinking, it is mental concomitant what accompany the mind.
It isn't words.
And this is why it falls flat on its face as a teaching that is relevant to peoples lives and as a method for liberation. Yes, we all know about not-self but the Buddha taught practically & gradually... he didn't get caught up in inane intellectual games, scholastic trickery or mind numbing lists. You've just answered with a spiel rather address the question... is that your idea of what 'thinking' & 'contemplation' is?
For you its mind numbing lists. But not for me, anymore.
I found a working way to make progress before i read Visuddhimagga and Sutta or rather acquired confidence what i already could do and keep at it to get progress out of it. When i tried to read Visuddhimagga i saw it tense with different terms etc and gave up on it after reading one page or so and Sutta were dry and didn't captivate me at all, maybe read one paragraph.
Your disgust towards Visuddhimagga or anything by Buddhagosa is not strange for me, its understandable, it may be too much if have no reference points and interest or thinking you have the best source - in your case Suttas for me it were other sources.

You are clinging to Sutta like its the only source, just study Suttas or whatever you have eyes for. In my case i had system and made progress and could describe details of what to do before i challenge other people practice or what they followed. Im still using that same way of doing progress, and making it faster than ever.

And yes, the Visuddhimagga interpretation of vitakka and vicara is agreeable for me. Thinking that vitakka is mere thinking thoughts in meditation is too little information to form an image how it would make sense in meditation(what i do).
At least you're honest in your denigration of the suttas in seeing them as 'lesser' teachings. Refuge is in the Buddha, Dhamma & Sangha... not Buddhaghosa, Visuddhimagga & Theravada.
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Re: How does Abhidhamma and Tv Cmy explain removal of thoughts with ānāpānā sati to get into 2nd jhāna?

Post by auto »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:40 am At least you're honest in your denigration of the suttas in seeing them as 'lesser' teachings. Refuge is in the Buddha, Dhamma & Sangha... not Buddhaghosa, Visuddhimagga & Theravada.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How does Abhidhamma and Tv Cmy explain removal of thoughts with ānāpānā sati to get into 2nd jhāna?

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:44 pm
And yet the Buddha repeatedly stated that first jhana contains vittaka & vicara. They may become subtler as first jhana deepens but their presence is undeniable.

The suttas are littered with explanations with what vittaka & vicara mean (thinking/contemplating), these are the words used by the Buddha. Do you think he used these words in the full knowledge that their real meaning would only become revealed hundreds or a thousand years later by the 'Great Commentators'?
As with English I don't think words mean the exact same thing in every context. I don't think the commentaries revealed anything, but rather preserved the meaning. The Jhānas are states of deep stillness. If someone can't even tranquilise their chattering monkey mind then they can never experience Jhāna. There is no verbal thinking in Jhāna. There is no thinking about something in Jhāna, not even about Jhāna. You can't get a still pool by whipping up waves.
Can you point to one sutta that describes vittaka & vicara as initial & applied 'attention'? I say attention because Buddhaghosa has reinvented 'thinking' as mere attention.
No one says it is attention, except those who do not understand the Theravādin position or who wish to misrepresent it.
Yo kho, bhikkhave, ariyacittassa anāsavacittassa ariyamaggasamaṅgino ariyamaggaṁ bhāvayato takko vitakko saṅkappo appanā byappanā cetaso abhiniropanā vacīsaṅkhāro—ayaṁ, bhikkhave, sammāsaṅkappo ariyo anāsavo lokuttaro maggaṅgo.

“And what, bhikkhus, is right intention that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The thinking, thought, intention, mental absorption, mental fixity, directing of mind, verbal formation in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path: this is right intention that is noble…a factor of the path.
https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/bodhi ... ight=false

We can see here that the Sangha has preserved the meaning of vitakka-vicāra as it applies to Jhāna. Normal verbal thoughts have nothing to do with it. Rather they are intentions, directing of mind, fixing of mind. As for your slander of Venerable Buddhaghosa, he didn't re-invent anything. Venerable Buddhaghosa merely translated and edited the commentaries. Unlike other famous masters of old (Venerables Vasubandhu, Asaṅga, Nāgārjuna etc) Venerable Buddhaghosa rarely expresses his own opinion.
“In the same way, great king, when a bhikkhu sees that these five hindrances are unabandoned within himself, he regards that as a debt, as a sickness, as confinement in prison, as slavery, as a desert road.”

Sāmaññaphala sutta
BrokenBones
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Re: How does Abhidhamma and Tv Cmy explain removal of thoughts with ānāpānā sati to get into 2nd jhāna?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:02 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:44 pm
And yet the Buddha repeatedly stated that first jhana contains vittaka & vicara. They may become subtler as first jhana deepens but their presence is undeniable.

The suttas are littered with explanations with what vittaka & vicara mean (thinking/contemplating), these are the words used by the Buddha. Do you think he used these words in the full knowledge that their real meaning would only become revealed hundreds or a thousand years later by the 'Great Commentators'?
As with English I don't think words mean the exact same thing in every context. I don't think the commentaries revealed anything, but rather preserved the meaning. The Jhānas are states of deep stillness. If someone can't even tranquilise their chattering monkey mind then they can never experience Jhāna. There is no verbal thinking in Jhāna. There is no thinking about something in Jhāna, not even about Jhāna. You can't get a still pool by whipping up waves.
Can you point to one sutta that describes vittaka & vicara as initial & applied 'attention'? I say attention because Buddhaghosa has reinvented 'thinking' as mere attention.
No one says it is attention, except those who do not understand the Theravādin position or who wish to misrepresent it.
Yo kho, bhikkhave, ariyacittassa anāsavacittassa ariyamaggasamaṅgino ariyamaggaṁ bhāvayato takko vitakko saṅkappo appanā byappanā cetaso abhiniropanā vacīsaṅkhāro—ayaṁ, bhikkhave, sammāsaṅkappo ariyo anāsavo lokuttaro maggaṅgo.

“And what, bhikkhus, is right intention that is noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path? The thinking, thought, intention, mental absorption, mental fixity, directing of mind, verbal formation in one whose mind is noble, whose mind is taintless, who possesses the noble path and is developing the noble path: this is right intention that is noble…a factor of the path.
https://suttacentral.net/mn117/en/bodhi ... ight=false

We can see here that the Sangha has preserved the meaning of vitakka-vicāra as it applies to Jhāna. Normal verbal thoughts have nothing to do with it. Rather they are intentions, directing of mind, fixing of mind. As for your slander of Venerable Buddhaghosa, he didn't re-invent anything. Venerable Buddhaghosa merely translated and edited the commentaries. Unlike other famous masters of old (Venerables Vasubandhu, Asaṅga, Nāgārjuna etc) Venerable Buddhaghosa rarely expresses his own opinion.
The chattering monkey mind does indeed need to be calmed... but not frozen. It becomes stilled in second jhana... but even there, still retains awareness.
The sutta you quote merely confirms my own ideas... they are not different meanings but simply synonyms or different aspects... thinking & verbal formations being two of them.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How does Abhidhamma and Tv Cmy explain removal of thoughts with ānāpānā sati to get into 2nd jhāna?

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:31 pm

The chattering monkey mind does indeed need to be calmed... but not frozen. It becomes stilled in second jhana
What you call "frozen" is what I call tranquilised. What ceases in the 2nd Jhāna is the subtle movement of the mind.

... but even there, still retains awareness.
Neither Theravāda nor I deny that there is awareness in Jhāna. Awareness (viññāṇa) is still operating.
The sutta you quote merely confirms my own ideas... they are not different meanings but simply synonyms or different aspects... thinking & verbal formations being two of them.
They aren't different meanings in that sutta. Rather the sangha has buffered the word "vitakka" there with associated words, so the meaning is not lost in that context. Based on that, when we read "vitakka" in the Jhāna pericope we are to understand it as intentional and fixed thought towards the meditation object, rather than thoughts such as "Did I feed the cat? This is pretty nice. So this is Jhāna. I have achieved Jhāna." Manasikāra brings an object to consciousness, vitakka is the application of the mind to the object whilst vicāra sustains it. Sati is also present, bearing in mind the object if concentration slips.
“In the same way, great king, when a bhikkhu sees that these five hindrances are unabandoned within himself, he regards that as a debt, as a sickness, as confinement in prison, as slavery, as a desert road.”

Sāmaññaphala sutta
Noble Sangha
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Re: How does Abhidhamma and Tv Cmy explain removal of thoughts with ānāpānā sati to get into 2nd jhāna?

Post by Noble Sangha »

There's still Savitakka, Savicara, and Avitakka, Avicara for you guys to work out . . . Based on what I'm seeing so far . . . wish you folks the best . . .

Just a piece of "good friend" advice. This can be related what's being discussed in this thread. From the Tapussasutta

https://suttacentral.net/an9.41/en/suja ... ript=latin

one can learn the ways Vitakka, Vicara, Savitakka, Savicara, Avitakka, Avicara are used. One can learn the theory (practice depends on one) on how to get into jhana's and attain "akuppā cetovimutti" from jhanic states. The process which Siddharth Bodhisattva used to attained perfect enlightenment. Of course one doesn't need jhanic states to attain nibbana. The Arahant's that accomplishes in that way are called "paññāvimutti"

Anyways . . .trying to understand the Tapussasutta with our modern wording / writing . . . :juggling: wish you folks the best at that as well . . .
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Re: How does Abhidhamma and Tv Cmy explain removal of thoughts with ānāpānā sati to get into 2nd jhāna?

Post by Joe.c »

Noble Sangha wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:13 pm Of course one doesn't need jhanic states to attain nibbana. The Arahant's that accomplishes in that way are called "paññāvimutti"
All arahants has jhana, even for Pannavimutti. One only needs 1st jhana to reach Nibbana. Whoever say Pannavimutti doesn't need jhana probably doesn't understand. :)
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May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
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Noble Sangha
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Re: How does Abhidhamma and Tv Cmy explain removal of thoughts with ānāpānā sati to get into 2nd jhāna?

Post by Noble Sangha »

Joe.c wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 4:49 am All arahants has jhana, even for Pannavimutti. One only needs 1st jhana to reach Nibbana. Whoever say Pannavimutti doesn't need jhana probably doesn't understand. :)
https://suttacentral.net/ud1.10/en/suja ... ript=latin

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.70/en/suj ... ript=latin

What did the ascetic Bahiya attain? What about the "mendicant's freed by wisdom"? Does anyone see any mentions of jhana's were need for the attainments?

You guys can read those two sutta's and decide for yourselves.

From the Abhidhamma, the citta vithi for attaining magga phala and jhana's are different. Of course, I know some doesn't even take the Abhidhamma to be the Buddha dhamma.
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Re: How does Abhidhamma and Tv Cmy explain removal of thoughts with ānāpānā sati to get into 2nd jhāna?

Post by Joe.c »

Noble Sangha wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:20 am
https://suttacentral.net/ud1.10/en/suja ... ript=latin

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.70/en/suj ... ript=latin

What did the ascetic Bahiya attain? What about the "mendicant's freed by wisdom"? Does anyone see any mentions of jhana's were need for the attainments?
Lol. One just use one-two sutta to conclude, then use "abhidhamma" to clarify. That is why it is foolish.

Using Bahiya and Susima sutta to said that there is no need jhana, it is just plainly on the wrong path for sure.

Jhana is easy especially if there is an ariya explain to you about true dhamma. One just need to focus on the true dhamma. No need to sit and meditate.

No nibbana if one doesn't have any jhana. This has been explained by Buddha in many many sutta.

Good luck.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
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frank k
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Re: How does Abhidhamma and Tv Cmy explain removal of thoughts with ānāpānā sati to get into 2nd jhāna?

Post by frank k »

I don't think anyone really is catching the main point of the thread.

With EBT understanding of jhāna, breath meditation said to be useful for removal of thoughts (vitakka) in AN 9.1, would be referring to 2nd jhāna or the jhāna that has some vicāra and no vitakka (AN 8.63). Vism. would call this 5fold jhāna system, which is still obviously referring to that 2nd jhāna state.

Yet, Vism. would be changing what vitakka means between those 2 suttas.

And further, Vism. doesn't even have awareness of breath to enter vism.'s redefinition of jhāna. A visual breath nimitta becomes the object.

Now Vism. also allows asubha to have first jhāna, and metta to have first 3 jhānas, so this establishes the no vitakka of breath meditation of AN 9.1 is still talking about 4 jhānas context.

Further, the EBT Theravadans really went out of their way in SN 54, the ānāpānā samyutta, which contains 20 suttas. A few suttas into the samyutta, they start calling 16 steps of breath meditation anapanasati SAMĀDHI, which seems to be fighting against heretical thoughts in the Theravada world.

That is, you have an EBT sangha of elders using consistent terminology for jhāna, kāya, vitakka, and young upstart "Theras" having contradictory refinitons with inconsistent and incoherent use of 'vitakka'. And no one in the LBT Theravada world seems to be questioning their inconsistency and incoherence.
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auto
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Re: How does Abhidhamma and Tv Cmy explain removal of thoughts with ānāpānā sati to get into 2nd jhāna?

Post by auto »

frank k wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 11:04 am Here, Sujato correctly translates vitakka as 'thinking',
Sujato translation, AN 9.1
They should develop the perception of ugliness to give up greed, love to give up hate, mindfulness of breathing to cut off thinking, and perception of impermanence to uproot the conceit ‘I am’.
asubhā bhāvetabbā rāgassa pahānāya, mettā bhāvetabbā byāpādassa pahānāya, ānāpānassati bhāvetabbā vitakkupacchedāya, aniccasaññā bhāvetabbā asmimānasamugghātāya. Variant: ānāpānassati → ānāpānasati (bj, pts1ed)
have you thought how you develop perception?
i think you need experience kamma result arisen from nekkhamma(not following worldly way) and then perception develops and that will be low grade enlightenment.
I think you have suggested that the developing perception of ugliness is watching ugly things.. i doubt it is that simple. Likewise you are thinking too simply regards to mindfulness too, thus you can't handle properly any technical idea, you want that the Suttas would be understood for average joe(without any training).
frank k wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 9:55 am I don't think anyone really is catching the main point of the thread.
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