Theravada monks insured in medical

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
asahi
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Theravada monks insured in medical

Post by asahi »

Is it legit according to vinaya , should they get insured , Is it necessary ? Isnt it is burdensome for lay people to pay n support .
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BKh
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Re: Theravada monks insured in medical

Post by BKh »

When possible they should move to a country with universal health care. ;-)

There is nothing in the Vinaya that relates to the concept of having health insurance or not having health insurance.

If a lay person wants to ensure that a monastic will have medical care in the event they need it, then it is merit for them. Whether it makes ecconomic sense is a totally separate issue. It is always the choice of lay people if they want to collect good karma by supporting monastics. Whether they do it by paying for health insurance or by paying the medical bills when they arise, that is up to them.

In Sri Lanka, now, foreign residents have to have health insurance to get a visa, so monks are required to have it, as far as I know.
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asahi
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Re: Theravada monks insured in medical

Post by asahi »

BKh wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:15 pm When possible they should move to a country with universal health care. ;-)

There is nothing in the Vinaya that relates to the concept of having health insurance or not having health insurance.

If a lay person wants to ensure that a monastic will have medical care in the event they need it, then it is merit for them. Whether it makes ecconomic sense is a totally separate issue. It is always the choice of lay people if they want to collect good karma by supporting monastics. Whether they do it by paying for health insurance or by paying the medical bills when they arise, that is up to them.

In Sri Lanka, now, foreign residents have to have health insurance to get a visa, so monks are required to have it, as far as I know.
Just curious , looking at recent two years hit by covid19 , many peoples are jobless and many losses in their business .
I have medical card and pay about 4k plus a year . Recently , buddhist society in our country asking to donate to get all the monks insured , which means have to pay probably very big sum amounts in a year . As told by them already covered 137 monks , for example if a monk pay 4k one year , that would be about 548k per year . If there are 1000 monks get insured , that would be a total of 4,000,000 in a year . 4 million is a very big amount , not every monk is sickly , would that be something necessary to spend if majority of them are healthy their whole life . They can ask for donation whenever they are sick and need medical treatment if necessary in future . Just a thought .
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DNS
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Re: Theravada monks insured in medical

Post by DNS »

That's true, medical insurance is very expensive. And when you see that dollar amount and start thinking about what the money could be otherwise used for, it could be for so many useful things from building a meditation hall, opening new temples, monastic quarters, daily, monthly expenses, so many things the money could be utilized for. And yet it is dangerous to be without medical insurance where a hospital might quietly release you, knowing that you don't have insurance and could have saved your life with surgery, but instead send you home to die.

I believe there are some doctors and clinics who take patients that pay cash, no insurance paperwork and delays with that, so they do the procedures at greatly reduced rates. For healthy monks and nuns, that might be the best alternative, to avoid placing too much burden on the lay community. And assuming the monks and nuns only go when absolutely necessary, the year-end cost would be much less than the insurance costs.
asahi
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Re: Theravada monks insured in medical

Post by asahi »

DNS wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:36 pm That's true, medical insurance is very expensive. And when you see that dollar amount and start thinking about what the money could be otherwise used for, it could be for so many useful things from building a meditation hall, opening new temples, monastic quarters, daily, monthly expenses, so many things the money could be utilized for. And yet it is dangerous to be without medical insurance where a hospital might quietly release you, knowing that you don't have insurance and could have saved your life with surgery, but instead send you home to die.

I believe there are some doctors and clinics who take patients that pay cash, no insurance paperwork and delays with that, so they do the procedures at greatly reduced rates. For healthy monks and nuns, that might be the best alternative, to avoid placing too much burden on the lay community. And assuming the monks and nuns only go when absolutely necessary, the year-end cost would be much less than the insurance costs.
I forgot to mention in our country , goverment hospital provides free medical care . :quote:
Plus , in our country we already have one buddhist hospital , several taoist association provides free medical treatments plus can supports poors medical expenses and one buddhist old folks home care which provides aging care and medical care with hired doctors n nurses .
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Re: Theravada monks insured in medical

Post by BKh »

asahi wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:46 pm I forgot to mention in our country , goverment hospital provides free medical care . :quote:
Yes, see the first thing I said. :jumping:
asahi wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:22 pm Just a thought .
Yes, the economics of healthcare is a totally different issue than the vinaya issue (of which there is none, in my opinion).

I believe one large Theravada monastery in the US, after years of trying to purchase health insurance for all the monks started to do a true "self insure" method where they set aside the amount of money they were paying into insurance into their own medical fund. Of course one monk with cancer could quickly wipe that out. But, unfortunately, an insured monk with cancer could also get kicked off of an insurance plan. However if it is a large monastery with mostly young monks, the economics of it could still work out.

I heard that a monk there, who had private pay insurance, was denied coverage for a broken arm. The reason given? It was somehow a pre-existing condition. Gravity has been around for a long time, eh?

There are also monasteries who "self insure" and all that means is that they don't buy insurance and then just hope for the best.

And I believe it is not uncommon that monasteries in the US will just hope that if a monastic ever needs expensive non-emergency care they can just be sent to Asia to get treatment where it is less expensive or sometimes free. It's also not unheard of for monastics to fly to Asia for major dental care. The savings can be as much as an air ticket, sadly.

BTW, a friendly reminder that there is no need to quote an entire post that you are responding to.
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Re: Theravada monks insured in medical

Post by Johann »

Good householder,

for one who as gone forth under the Tripple Gems, the Tripple games are his insurance, refuge, and with it, one of the great field of merits found in this world.

For one who has not left trades and contracts in the world behind, for one who has not found the Gems as his only secure refuge, has not left society, such, if going forth, might meet times of feeling left alone.

Generally, as not only mental but also medical care, the Sublime Buddha declared the Sangha and monastic disciples it self as the medical refuge as well, since monks do not have "mother, father, state..." who would take care of them.

The famous story on that in the Mahavagga.

If serious with not trade with householder, not using money, not asking for medicine, such as personal insurance isn't something releasing from remorse, allowed, for monks. Even to approach a doctor without being given, how should it work?

There are cases where states organise free care for monks in public hospitals, but from experiances, those serve and give actually are seldom in mood of giving and again hardly undertake-able if not guided by others there.

Although it's huge merit if a king or a state organize or declare that the monks have to been looked after. What's not given by own hand (and that counts also for ideas of paying a monk an insurance) will not so merit and will not so reach the aim, as many who are not after merits would "thief" away inbetween.

A monk might come back to an offer made toward him, like: Venerable, may Venerable accept the offer to approach when ever, if in need of medical care, I will take care on it. (Such is allowed, but as mind of people easy changes, not the best to make use, at least not after longer time, when a donor might be in different mood or forgot it).

A monk is given to ask his near relatives for needs (while relatives here is very differently interpreted, reaching from close to 7 generations...)

A monk is given to request medicine in case of snake bite. Also many other rules are not obligate when sick, in regard of food, cloth... and a monk would mostly not do wrong if pointing out anothers medical need.

Modern sociaties, either under lay people, or modern monastics, are merely really poor as they try to give away duties toward each other to gain more time from more gainings. Most poor indeed, are monks using money as normal means.

To answer wherer it isn't actually burdensome for lay people (not to speak of using public healthcare!! ungiven): yes, it would be, and so never demanded at all. As for using comon social care, such, as not given, is improper, would rightly lead to blame (think how much arguing on who deserves fond, who not, goes on around).

Summary: Don't one, after noble goal, be afraid to lack in regard of the four conditions. Sickness, death, lack is normal, for sure for all sooner or later, going beyond not.
Don't one ever miss any possibility of doing merits, giving, care, not to speak of possibilities of the fifth proper season of giving and giving related to ones duty within chosen community.
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Re: Theravada monks insured in medical

Post by TRobinson465 »

I know of at least a few monks in the US who have health insurance. I dont see a problem with it. the four requisites of monastics are food, clothing, shelter and medicine. Health insurance in the US is medicine (albeit ridiculously overpriced compared to every other nation on earth, but 'Murica), and it is reasonable for monks to be covered since its not like you can just go and find a Buddhist doctor to treat you for free that easily here and you dont want the monastery to have to make the decision of letting a monk die or losing all of of the temples assets to pay for his medical bills (i know, i know thats strange to hear for most non-Americans but that is the norm here).
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Re: Theravada monks insured in medical

Post by asahi »

TRobinson465 wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:03 am I know of at least a few monks in the US who have health insurance. I dont see a problem with it.
i know thats strange to hear for most non-Americans but that is the norm here).
If it is only A few monks then that cause no problem . Imagine for 1000 monks to be insured ! 🤑
No , not unusual at all . If Not Enough Money to cover the insurance is certainly unusual . 🤑

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Re: Theravada monks insured in medical

Post by TRobinson465 »

asahi wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:50 pm
TRobinson465 wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:03 am I know of at least a few monks in the US who have health insurance. I dont see a problem with it.
i know thats strange to hear for most non-Americans but that is the norm here).
If it is only A few monks then that cause no problem . Imagine for 1000 monks to be insured ! 🤑
No , not unusual at all . If Not Enough Money to cover the insurance is certainly unusual . 🤑

:jumping:
True, but what temple in the US would have 1000 monks? And if a temple had 1000 monks id imagine they would have a huge donor base to actually need that many. Plus large/popular temples are actually quite rich, thanks to things like economies of scale. its cheaper to pay for the facilities of 500 monks than 5 monks on a per monk basis, so if the donor base is proportionally as large (and it usually is) they have much more left over when covering the basic expenses. Ive seen temples with a dozen or so monks that have medical insurance for all of them. Its purely anecdotal so i cant say if this is the norm, given how expensive health insurance is here I'd imagine less well supported temples just go without. Plus, the less well supported temples are usually filled with foriegn monks with close ties to thier home countries, if they develop diabetes or cancer something they can just return to thailand and sri lanka and get affordable care there rather than bankrupt the lay supporters with American medical bills.

For sure im confident its not against the vinaya to take out health insurance as a monk, as medicine is a requisite (we are of nature to sicken), even if most of that money is just going to price gauging pharma and insurance execs rather than actual medical care. Whether to do it or not is just a matter of circumstance.
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asahi
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Re: Theravada monks insured in medical

Post by asahi »

TRobinson465 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:48 pm True, but what temple in the US would have 1000 monks?
Isnt my earlier posts said is it burdensome for lays ? Then i did add it was enquiring with regards to my country situation not US . Since US didnt have many monks no problem then . As DNS said it is much more expensive over there .
TRobinson465 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:48 pm For sure im confident its not against the vinaya to take out health insurance as a monk, as medicine is a requisite (we are of nature to sicken), even if most of that money is just going to price gauging pharma and insurance execs rather than actual medical care. Whether to do it or not is just a matter of circumstance.
Well , the matter is , i did say our cointry already had free govt hospital care and a buddhist hospital available , so it is quite a waste of devotees money . And if inappropriately use or to waste devotees money is agaisnt the vinaya , that i read it elsewhere . I dont know if other countries always collecting money from devotees but in our country there are too many .
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Re: Theravada monks insured in medical

Post by TRobinson465 »

asahi wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:58 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:48 pm True, but what temple in the US would have 1000 monks?
Isnt my earlier posts said is it burdensome for lays ? Then i did add it was enquiring with regards to my country situation not US . Since US didnt have many monks no problem then . As DNS said it is much more expensive over there .
TRobinson465 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:48 pm For sure im confident its not against the vinaya to take out health insurance as a monk, as medicine is a requisite (we are of nature to sicken), even if most of that money is just going to price gauging pharma and insurance execs rather than actual medical care. Whether to do it or not is just a matter of circumstance.
Well , the matter is , i did say our cointry already had free govt hospital care and a buddhist hospital available , so it is quite a waste of devotees money . And if inappropriately use or to waste devotees money is agaisnt the vinaya , that i read it elsewhere . I dont know if other countries always collecting money from devotees but in our country there are too many .
Yes its a case by case basis. depending on where you live and the circumstances of specific temple. Any kind of general blanket rule against medical insurance doesnt make sense imo. If in your country health insurance is a waste of money-like travel insurance or something. Than yeah, dont waste the laypeoples money.
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Re: Theravada monks insured in medical

Post by BKh »

TRobinson465 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:48 pm For sure im confident its not against the vinaya to take out health insurance as a monk, ...
Me too.

New Zealand has an interesting national accident insurance. I don't know very much about it, but it sounds like anyone in the country at all who is in an accident (vehicle only?) is covered by the national health insurance. It's really interesting because vehicle accidents probably represent one of the largest emergency medical expenses that one could experience.
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Re: Theravada monks insured in medical

Post by mikenz66 »

BKh wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 3:31 am
TRobinson465 wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:48 pm For sure im confident its not against the vinaya to take out health insurance as a monk, ...
Me too.

New Zealand has an interesting national accident insurance. I don't know very much about it, but it sounds like anyone in the country at all who is in an accident (vehicle only?) is covered by the national health insurance. It's really interesting because vehicle accidents probably represent one of the largest emergency medical expenses that one could experience.
ACC (Accident compensation) covers any accident. It was started in the early 1970s as a "no fault" system to provide compensation whether or not there was someone to blame and sue for ongoing support (e.g. if someone was paralysed, lost a limb, etc,). There are some incentives in the system for organisations to improve safely, as they pay a levy based on workplace accident statistics. Vehicle registration includes an ACC levy. Certainly not perfect, but no system is... For residents, hospital care is free, but not primary care, and elective surgery (e.g. a hip replacement) has long waiting lists, so insurance is available to cover primary care and elective surgery. Where the public system can fall down is for people who have ongoing problems that need treatment from primary care providers (GP, physio, drugs), which can add up...

I think the ACC system covers non-residents, whereas residents who need non-accident related hospital care are expected to pay (eventually - it's not like someone having a heart attack would be sent away).

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Re: Theravada monks insured in medical

Post by asahi »

In my country , if a motorbike hits on a car , no matter whose fault it is , the car driver will have to bear the responsiblity ! 😅
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