How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

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Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

It turns out that since everything is conditioned, we are something like automata, computers. Feelings come automatically, mind thinks automatically, will is formed automatically. We cannot influence the process, we can only observe. Is this what teaching leads to?
Then how to realize the noble eightfold path? How to deal with passion? How to eliminate thoughts of harm? How to concentrate in dhyana?
asahi
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by asahi »

nothingworthgrasping wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:45 am
asahi wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:26 am Self in buddhism was referred to Atman or Atma , an immaterial part of a human being resided in the body . It Cannot be Destroyed , Permanent , Unchanging , Independent and Self-Mastery . That cannot be found if you examine or investigate thoroughly on this physical body and the other four aggregates .
Are you in the wrong forum? This is Theravada Buddhism, not Upanishadic Hinduism.
You might want to examine again above or are you having difficulty reading ! 😂🤣
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asahi
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by asahi »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:39 am
asahi wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:26 am Self in buddhism was referred to Atman or Atma , an immaterial part of a human being resided in the body . It Cannot be Destroyed , Permanent , Unchanging , Independent and Self-Mastery . That cannot be found if you examine or investigate thoroughly on this physical body and the other four aggregates .
This is true... but to declare there is NO self is a View that needs to be abandoned.

Imagine that I believe there is a rat in my house... I search every room and nook & cranny and find no rat... I can declare there is no rat here... but as for there being no rat anywhere... I wouldn't declare this and in point of fact I have no interest in anything outside of my room... I have no view about it... a bit stretched but it helps me understand the Buddha's teaching.
You might want to reread again , i didnt declare anything . I said examine n investigate for yourself . :quote:

:coffee: Have a cup of coffee or tea !
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Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

What do you think, ladies and gentlemen, about my question?
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Goofaholix »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:02 pm It turns out that since everything is conditioned, we are something like automata, computers. Feelings come automatically, mind thinks automatically, will is formed automatically. We cannot influence the process, we can only observe. Is this what teaching leads to?
Then how to realize the noble eightfold path? How to deal with passion? How to eliminate thoughts of harm? How to concentrate in dhyana?
We can influence the process, the teaching of the Buddha would be pointless if that were not the case.

Causes and conditions lead to what we experience but we have a degree of choice in how we react, and we can create conditions for better choices in future.

Causes and conditions dictate which cards you are dealt but you can choose how to play your hand, and learn to play our hand better in future.
“What we call "I" is just a swinging door which moves when we inhale and when we exhale.”
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by BrokenBones »

asahi wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:45 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 8:39 am
asahi wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 5:26 am Self in buddhism was referred to Atman or Atma , an immaterial part of a human being resided in the body . It Cannot be Destroyed , Permanent , Unchanging , Independent and Self-Mastery . That cannot be found if you examine or investigate thoroughly on this physical body and the other four aggregates .
This is true... but to declare there is NO self is a View that needs to be abandoned.

Imagine that I believe there is a rat in my house... I search every room and nook & cranny and find no rat... I can declare there is no rat here... but as for there being no rat anywhere... I wouldn't declare this and in point of fact I have no interest in anything outside of my room... I have no view about it... a bit stretched but it helps me understand the Buddha's teaching.
You might want to reread again , i didnt declare anything . I said examine n investigate for yourself . :quote:

:coffee: Have a cup of coffee or tea !
Never said YOU did... you need to read things a bit slower.
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mjaviem
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by mjaviem »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:05 pm ...
It is also argued that the body is "not ours", not in our power, not under our control, thoughts are not under control. But it is obvious that we control the body and thoughts. We can act with the body, strengthen it. We can remember what we want, focus on the right thought, of our choice. How does it happen then?
...
Obvious? Can you tell the body to stop ageing? To not fall ill? To not break apart and decompose? Are you sure you produce your memories, your thoughts? Do you really think you can make a thought be one way and other thought be another way?
Konstantin Sol wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:45 am ...
But this is the foundation of the foundations, the essence of the doctrine. Whatever text I take, everywhere there is a reference to anatta. Are there really no examples of how skandhas work, how it happens, without an independent manager?
...
How things work is not the scope of the Buddhas's teachings. He didn't teach the mechanics of the world. This is irrelevant to the goal. Things happen. Why do you think an independent manager must be there?
Konstantin Sol wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:45 am ...
It turns out that since everything is conditioned...
Everything is conditioned is not the Buddha teaching. That's out of scope and irrelevant to the goal. The Buddha's teachings are about the presence of dukkha when there is the presence of a certain specific condition, and the arising of that condition when there is the presence of certain another specific condition, and so on, and the absence of dukkha with the absence of these specific conditions.
Konstantin Sol wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:45 am ... we are...
That's a delusion as we are taught about.
Konstantin Sol wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:45 am ... something like automata, computers...
but with craving and desires.
Konstantin Sol wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:45 am ... Feelings come automatically, mind thinks automatically, will is formed automatically. We cannot influence the process, we can only observe...
You can choose to renounce, to restrain your senses, to let go, to abandon the unwholesome.
Konstantin Sol wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:45 am ... Then how to start realizing the noble eightfold path? How to deal with passion (practice morality)? How to eliminate thoughts of harm? How to concentrate in dhyana? We are only watching, not managing.
You hear the good Dhamma. That's how you start.
Last edited by mjaviem on Sat Aug 06, 2022 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by cappuccino »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:31 pm What do you think, ladies and gentlemen, about my question?
what do you think of my answer


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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by asahi »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:22 pm
This is true... but to declare there is NO self is a View that needs to be abandoned.
i didnt declare there is no self , why did you say about declaring no self in the post forwarded to me then . :shrug:
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by BrokenBones »

asahi wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:45 am
BrokenBones wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:22 pm
This is true... but to declare there is NO self is a View that needs to be abandoned.
i didnt declare there is no self , why did you say about declaring no self in the post forwarded to me then . :shrug:
I was merely using your concise summation of not self & pointing out that some 'people' can go astray if they hold on to the View that there is no self :roll:
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by pegembara »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:02 pm It turns out that since everything is conditioned, we are something like automata, computers. Feelings come automatically, mind thinks automatically, will is formed automatically. We cannot influence the process, we can only observe. Is this what teaching leads to?
Then how to realize the noble eightfold path? How to deal with passion? How to eliminate thoughts of harm? How to concentrate in dhyana?
It’s like being in a dream. Everything happens in the dream but when you wake up you realize that actually nothing really happened. When you’re in the dream telling yourself that you’re just dreaming doesn’t work. At best, you get glimpses of what’s really happening. As your wisdom grows you get to see more and more until one day hopefully you get to get out of the dream of existence.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Okay, thanks for your answers!
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Obvious? Can you tell the body to stop ageing? To not fall ill? To not break apart and decompose? Are you sure you produce your memories, your thoughts? Do you really think you can make a thought be one way and other thought be another way?
Ok, it turns out that the body and thoughts can be controlled, but partially.

For example, we cannot stop thinking at all. We cannot think 50 thoughts at the same time. We can't stop thinking about the "white monkey".

But we can concentrate on one thought. Recall the thought we need. Get rid of unnecessary thoughts. And so on.
Let's take a problem in physics. To solve it, you need to think, make an effort. We remember the necessary knowledge and compare with the condition. The mind cannot solve the problem by itself, automatically, without effort. So we control the mind. Right?
То, как все работает, не является предметом учений Будды. Он не учил механике мира. Это не имеет отношения к цели. Всякое случается. Как вы думаете, почему должен быть независимый менеджер?
How then are decisions made?
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Goofaholix wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 10:37 pm
Konstantin Sol wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:02 pm It turns out that since everything is conditioned, we are something like automata, computers. Feelings come automatically, mind thinks automatically, will is formed automatically. We cannot influence the process, we can only observe. Is this what teaching leads to?
Then how to realize the noble eightfold path? How to deal with passion? How to eliminate thoughts of harm? How to concentrate in dhyana?
We can influence the process, the teaching of the Buddha would be pointless if that were not the case.

Causes and conditions lead to what we experience but we have a degree of choice in how we react, and we can create conditions for better choices in future.

Causes and conditions dictate which cards you are dealt but you can choose how to play your hand, and learn to play our hand better in future.
Thank you very much for your answers!
Dhammawuddho Thera. By knowing any sensual object, feeling automatically arises. Up to this point we have no control, but starting from here, we ourselves can decide how to react to us. It is here that the will is activated and kamma (intentional action) is created."
It turns out that perceptions, sensations, feelings come completely automatically, here we cannot influence if we do not close all five sense organs from the outside world.
And then, next the process is not quite automatic. We can influence it.
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Aug 05, 2022 4:15 am
Konstantin Sol wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:05 pm But how does this happen if there is no independent "I", the owner, the manager? Who develops the mind?
"Then is there no self?"

A second time, the Blessed One was silent.

If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism [the view that death is the annihilation of consciousness].

Ananda Sutta: To Ananda
(On Self, No Self, and Not-self)
I understand that there is a dependent, transient "self".
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