sense bases disappear ?

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AlexBrains92
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:55 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:51 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:44 pm
I don't think you actually have. You've made a few generally true statements to do with Arhats' and/or Āryans' realizations, and you've made an argument that Arhats and/or Āryans would not have the same conceptions regarding things as worldlings, but I don't think you've commented on the mechanics of how the residue left produces dukkha if not by contact-borne vedanā and what that dukkha is if it is not vedanā.

You don't have to answer now though. I myself have to finish my larger post I said I'd make before I can get in-depth with this issue.
There's no different mechanics. DO has been transcended, that's it.
Anyway, I'm not an arahant, so I have no further details :D
If DO is the mechanics behind the production of vedanā-based dukkha, and if they have said dukkha/vedanā, how can you say that this process has been "transcended" in the specific way that you are saying at present? I don't expect you to be an Āryan, but I do think that you're holding an indefensible view, or at least one that you can't defend using the Pāli Canon and other EBTs. Several Chán masters might agree with you. The Platform Sūtra and the Śūraṅgamasūtra might come to your aid, but not the EBTs I don't think.
Yesterday I summarized my view like this: cessation of DO is "just" radical disidentification.
I'm probably not able to support this effectively, but it doesn't sound so absurd to me.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


- Snp 4.5 -
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:08 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:55 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:51 pm
There's no different mechanics. DO has been transcended, that's it.
Anyway, I'm not an arahant, so I have no further details :D
If DO is the mechanics behind the production of vedanā-based dukkha, and if they have said dukkha/vedanā, how can you say that this process has been "transcended" in the specific way that you are saying at present? I don't expect you to be an Āryan, but I do think that you're holding an indefensible view, or at least one that you can't defend using the Pāli Canon and other EBTs. Several Chán masters might agree with you. The Platform Sūtra and the Śūraṅgamasūtra might come to your aid, but not the EBTs I don't think.
Yesterday I summarized my view like this: cessation of DO is "just" radical disidentification.
I'm probably not able to support this effectively, but it doesn't sound so absurd to me.
It’s that and the cessation of rebirth, the central problem the Buddha was concerned with.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:08 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:55 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:51 pm
There's no different mechanics. DO has been transcended, that's it.
Anyway, I'm not an arahant, so I have no further details :D
If DO is the mechanics behind the production of vedanā-based dukkha, and if they have said dukkha/vedanā, how can you say that this process has been "transcended" in the specific way that you are saying at present? I don't expect you to be an Āryan, but I do think that you're holding an indefensible view, or at least one that you can't defend using the Pāli Canon and other EBTs. Several Chán masters might agree with you. The Platform Sūtra and the Śūraṅgamasūtra might come to your aid, but not the EBTs I don't think.
Yesterday I summarized my view like this: cessation of DO is "just" radical disidentification.
I'm probably not able to support this effectively, but it doesn't sound so absurd to me.
Well, it sounds to me like that allows for disidentified contact, vedanā, etc.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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cappuccino
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by cappuccino »

AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:08 pm like this: cessation of DO is "just" radical disidentification.
No … it’s radically not craving
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retrofuturist
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
asahi wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:12 pm To you , what does the above highlighted means ? If you think they are not sense base , sphere or organ or domain , what are they ?

the faculties of the eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body.
I'm satisfied with the PTS Dictionary definition provided earlier.
(personal potentiality of) vision etc.
Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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cappuccino
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by cappuccino »

retrofuturist wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 4:05 am With no arising of the sense bases, there is no arisen "I" for "sense objects" to "contact".
Dependent arising is not about annihilation of any kind


Rather it’s about no longer indulging in sensuality


Can you see the difference
Last edited by cappuccino on Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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retrofuturist
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:08 pm Yesterday I summarized my view like this: cessation of DO is "just" radical disidentification.
I'm probably not able to support this effectively, but it doesn't sound so absurd to me.
Perhaps the ending of asmi-mana might have the same meaning, but be easier to support?
Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:15 pmIt’s that and the cessation of rebirth, the central problem the Buddha was concerned with.
The central problem is obviously dukkha. See: the Four Noble Truths.

If rebirth were the "central problem" nobody would ever want to be reborn or to live again. The pyramids would never have existed. 😱 Nobody would want to be reborn in heaven! :o Why did the Buddha teach the way to higher rebirth for lay puthujjanas then, if "rebirth [was] the central problem the Buddha was concerned with"? 🤔

You've got a hard sell in front of you, with that characterisation of the Dhamma.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
cappuccino wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:38 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 4:05 am With no arising of the sense bases, there is no arisen "I" for "sense objects" to "contact".
Dependent arising is not about annihilation of any kind

Rather it’s about no longer indulging in sensuality

Can you see the difference
I can see that no one in this discussion is proposing annihilation.

I cannot see why you think they are.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by cappuccino »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:42 pm I can see that no one in this discussion is proposing annihilation.

I cannot see why you think they are.
You seem to think we must lose our senses


And somehow that is the end of suffering
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
cappuccino wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:43 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:42 pm I can see that no one in this discussion is proposing annihilation.

I cannot see why you think they are.
You seem to think we must lose our senses

And somehow that is the end of suffering
Image

Cappuccino... if that's the conclusion you've come to, 23 pages into this topic, then I don't know how I, or anyone else here, can help you understand. Maybe look more into the meaning of the term nirodha?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by cappuccino »

retrofuturist wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:49 pm Maybe look more into the meaning of the term nirodha?
You think there is no self to annihilate

Like this…
Ananda Sutta wrote:If I — being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no self — were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those brahmans & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism.
No self to annihilate … is annihilationism

:candle:
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Participating in this forum would be much simpler if people would stop wrongly insisting I believe certain things. :strawman:

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:34 pm Well, it sounds to me like that allows for disidentified contact, vedanā, etc.
Which should never be conflated with anything dependently originated that is arisen dependent upon avijja... even if the words are the same. Such violence to meaning usually makes discussions like this impossible. As it does when people indiscriminately ignore what dependence means, and insist that everything is and remains "dependent upon avijja" because once upon a time, in a lifetime, far, far away...

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by cappuccino »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:17 am stop wrongly insisting I believe certain things.
You told me there is no self to annihilate

:?
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by justindesilva »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:38 pm
AlexBrains92 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:08 pm like this: cessation of DO is "just" radical disidentification.
No … it’s radically not craving
Salayatana do not arise simultaneously . When one disappeares the next appears. Perhaps when the sense of eyes disappear the sense of ears or hearing arises, while other senses do take part similarly one after the other. They arise because we crave for it with our vingnana creating emotions. This can be understood with paticcasamuppada .
As an analogy let us take a six stroke engine which strokes with plugs one after the other. They work one after the other and not simultaneously.
Samadhi is attained when we programme our mind or sati to receive to read one sense or such sense or a signal continuously not desiring other forms or signals of other signals. Ana pana sati bhavana is the simplest to understand this phenomenon.
With such an effort we make the other sense bases disappear temporarily until anapana sati is over.
No sooner than the meditation is over the other sense bases of salayatana will be activated with desires arising.
Anatta lakkhana sutta clarifies how it works with rupa vedana sanga sankara followed by vingnana. This vingnana creates our craving out of emotion .
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