sense bases disappear ?

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asahi
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:22 am Greetings,
asahi wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:12 am Ability of seeing and Seeing are two things , you said .
Two different things, yes.
asahi wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:12 am How do you regard the mind or mano? Is it an indriya & an ability of thinking ? Why it is not mentioned as an indriya ?
It is mentioned as an indriya occasionally, and in that context would simply mean the ability to use the mind.
asahi wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:12 am
MN 43 seems to miss out on the mind which must depends on life and warmth too ? ? ?
Presumably, but it would be sufficient to know that what is being referred to as an indriya is not a phenomena, nor is it dependent upon avijja.
Lets looks at MN152 again .
It seems the meaning of training of indriya refers to involving the sense organ , sense object and sense consciousness etc as one series of events . Therefore per indriya alone , it suppose to refer to eyes etc .
It doesnt says anything about developing 5 spiritual faculties of faith (saddha); energy (viriya); mindfulness (sati); concentration (samadhi); and wisdom (panna) , as per your earlier post that you asserted ?!

Uttara, does Pārāsariya teach his disciples the development of the faculties?”

“deseti, uttara, pārāsiviyo brāhmaṇo sāvakānaṁ indriyabhāvanan”ti?

“He does, Master Gotama.”
“Deseti, bho gotama, pārāsiviyo brāhmaṇo sāvakānaṁ indriyabhāvanan”ti.

“But how does he teach it?”
“Yathā kathaṁ pana, uttara, deseti pārāsiviyo brāhmaṇo sāvakānaṁ indriyabhāvanan”ti?

“Master Gotama, it’s when the eye sees no sight and the ear hears no sound.

“Idha, bho gotama, cakkhunā rūpaṁ na passati, sotena saddaṁ na suṇāti

That’s how Pārāsariya teaches his disciples the development of the faculties.”

evaṁ kho, bho gotama, deseti pārāsiviyo brāhmaṇo sāvakānaṁ indriyabhāvanan”ti.
“And how, Ānanda, is there the supreme development of the faculties in the training of the Noble One?

“Kathañcānanda, ariyassa vinaye anuttarā indriyabhāvanā hoti?

When a mendicant sees a sight with their eyes, liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking come up in them.

Idhānanda, bhikkhuno cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā uppajjati manāpaṁ, uppajjati amanāpaṁ, uppajjati manāpāmanāpaṁ.
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retrofuturist
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Asahi,
asahi wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:39 am Lets looks at MN152 again.
OK.
asahi wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:39 am It seems the meaning of training of indriya refers to the sense organ , sense object and sense consciousness etc as one series of events .
No. The Sutta is called the "Indriya-bhavana Sutta". Of indriya-bhavana, the PTS defines it as "cultivation of the (five, see above Cd) moral qualities", which C(d) then defines as "moral (above B 15-19)", which are the five faculties I listed in the aforementioned post. As Mike also helpfully pointed out, the Sutta is in Saḷāyatanavagga.

How would one train the eye-faculty, by the way? Eating carrots? Laser-eye surgery? :shrug:
asahi wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:39 am It doesnt says anything about developing 5 spiritual faculties of faith (saddha); energy (viriya); mindfulness (sati); concentration (samadhi); and wisdom (panna) , as per your earlier post that you asserted ?!
Again, per PTS... "It is often to be guessed from the context only, which of the sets of 5 indriyāni (usually either group a or d) is meant". The context is as given above.

So really, nothing has changed since we last looked at MN 152 again.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
asahi
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:50 am No. The Sutta is called the "Indriya-bhavana Sutta". Of indriya-bhavana, the PTS defines it as "cultivation of the (five, see above Cd) moral qualities", which C(d) then defines as "moral (above B 15-19)", which are the five faculties I listed in the aforementioned post. As Mike also helpfully pointed out, the Sutta is in Saḷāyatanavagga.

How would one train the eye-faculty, by the way? Eating carrots? Laser-eye surgery?
But then your interpretation of indriya as Ability or Power of eyes etc has nothing to do with MN152 . It is about purification of the senses and not per its Ability of seeing hearing smelling tasting etc .
You said Ability or Power of seeing etc differents from Seeing etc itself , yet , if there is such thing called Power of seeing of the eyes , such Ability or Power has nothing to do with ending of defilements ?
Indriya of which type that you are practicing ? :shrug:
What i know is , it is mano , dhamma and its vinnana that are dealing with kilesas .
how are they a noble one with developed faculties? When a mendicant sees a sight with their eyes, liking, disliking, and both liking and disliking come up in them. If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive,’ that’s what they do. If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive,’ that’s what they do. If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the unrepulsive in the repulsive and the unrepulsive,’ that’s what they do. If they wish: ‘May I meditate perceiving the repulsive in the unrepulsive and the repulsive,’ that’s what they do. If they wish: ‘May I meditate staying equanimous, mindful and aware, rejecting both the repulsive and the unrepulsive,’ that’s what they do.
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:50 am
asahi wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:39 am It doesnt says anything about developing 5 spiritual faculties of faith (saddha); energy (viriya); mindfulness (sati); concentration (samadhi); and wisdom (panna) , as per your earlier post that you asserted ?!
Again, per PTS... "It is often to be guessed from the context only, which of the sets of 5 indriyāni (usually either group a or d) is meant". The context is as given above.
I dont take dictionary as prove of certainties . In the teachings of the Buddha , there is no such thing as guessing . You would need Proving it . As i see , clearly it doesnt refers to 5 spiritual faculties as you said . But if you are insisting , it is up to you .
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

If it's vinnana which creates the subject-object duality, does this mean vinnana has ceased for the Arahant? And if so, how is the Arahant aware of stuff?
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by justindesilva »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:00 am If it's vinnana which creates the subject-object duality, does this mean vinnana has ceased for the Arahant? And if so, how is the Arahant aware of stuff?
While the subject object duality in the vinngnana of an arhant is neutral the cetasika concerned is upekka or neutral.
The term vinganam avidassanam explains this and is relevant only to arhants.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

justindesilva wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:12 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:00 am If it's vinnana which creates the subject-object duality, does this mean vinnana has ceased for the Arahant? And if so, how is the Arahant aware of stuff?
While the subject object duality in the vinngnana of an arhant is neutral the cetasika concerned is upekka or neutral.
The term vinganam avidassanam explains this and is relevant only to arhants.
Do you mean vinnanam anidassanam replaces vinnana for the Arahant?
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justindesilva
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by justindesilva »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:15 am
justindesilva wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:12 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:00 am If it's vinnana which creates the subject-object duality, does this mean vinnana has ceased for the Arahant? And if so, how is the Arahant aware of stuff?
While the subject object duality in the vinngnana of an arhant is neutral the cetasika concerned is upekka or neutral.
The term vinganam avidassanam explains this and is relevant only to arhants.
Do you mean vinnanam anidassanam replaces vinnana for the Arahant?
Vingnanam anidassanam could be ecplained as when vingnana is signless. When apo tejo vayo patavi has no footing or base . Signless also could mean without reaction.
Seen as not seen or heard as not heard etc
Also see Bahiya sutta for this.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by cappuccino »

justindesilva wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:39 am Also see Bahiya sutta for this.
I don’t think anyone understands Bahiya sutta
ToVincent
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by ToVincent »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:17 pm
justindesilva wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 8:39 am Also see Bahiya sutta for this.
I don’t think anyone understands Bahiya sutta
In the Bāhiya sutta (ud.1.10), (aka Maluṅkyaputta sutta - SN 35.95) ,

Ettha ca te, mālukyaputta, diṭṭha­suta­mu­taviñ­ñātab­besu dhammesu diṭṭhe diṭṭhamattaṃ bhavissati,...

Should be translated as:
When, Māluṅkyaputta, in the things - (dhammas = undertakings) - seen, heard, sensed, and cognized by you, in that seen there will exist a minute (moderate) portion of the seen, ... etc.

Mattā (Vedic mātrā)
- correct measure RV. ChUp.
- a minute portion ŚBr.
As in "moderation" — https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/m/mattā/


What is to be experienced is merely the sound, with a sense-consciousness gone through a purified mano (parisuddhena manoviññāṇena - MN 43). That is to say, a sense-consciousness that comprehends that: neither "this is mine",nor "I am this (sound)".

____

Restraining the indriyas ("keeping guard over the doors of the powers (faculties) > Indriyesu guttadvārā"), can't eradicate them totally.
In AN 6.55, Buddha states that nonetheless, they can be brought to their plain, flat, regular, viz. "normal" level.
Again, this is what is meant by "in the seen, a moderate portion of the seen".
That is to say, looking at something, knowing that it is not "yours" - and restraining the indriyani; so that the effect of these indriyani on the āyatanani, will not trigger sensory experiences that one could crave for and appropriate.
One see with moderation (mattā), and is neither there (as this is "mine") , or here (as this is "I").
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
Jack19990101
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Tanha differentiates light vs darkness, mixed colors vs single color all over.
Emptiness/Anatta doesn't.
Light is form arising, Darkness is too form arising.
Light/darkness is exact same (on attribute of anatta/emptiness).
Nothing is special about light/color comparing to darkness/single color.

With that being understood -
In order to differentiate light/dark, it gives arise to sense base.
Simple term is Differentiation of light vs darkness, which unconsciously assigns a
function to eyes. It is a redundant function, and an unnecessary detour.
The reason we differentiate light vs darkness, is that we have evaluated an attribute other than attribute of Anatta/emptiness. That means we have picked up a sign.

Sense base -
It is an effect or function which
. Make passive Sight arising into active action To see/seeing.
. connect sensed with memory, names, emotions, habitual instincts. All done without deliberation, swiftly.
. Curate the model of Phassa.

This effect(sense base) must go if one wants maintenance-free safety, serenity.

The memory, names so on, will stay intact. The spontaneity in labelling & human instincts, will drop.
PeterC86
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by PeterC86 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:54 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:45 pm
Nope. The Buddha brought an end to avijja and merrily went on his way for decades without suddenly dying.
It arose because of ignorance as a condition. Ignorance precedes life, as the Buddha started with ignorance as the root condition. Arising, it has to run its course. It is old kamma. Due to a lack of current ignorance, life has no basis for which to arise again. New kamma has been cut off.
Does this mean that, in a conventional sense, instead of understanding evolution being the workings of nature as to how human life came to be, you propose that human life is based on ignorance, and that our physical bodies somehow got fabricated out of ignorance, thereby denying genetics, metabolism, and all other relevant biological processes? How would this go? Maybe the universe came out of ignorance too? You see the problem of this belief?

Ignorance is dependently originated, and if this is not understood, a condition for ignorance needs to be found, and if so, one will further dwell in samsara, endlessly pondering about 'kamma'.
As was explained earlier in this topic, I understand the basis for your ideas, I just disagree with them, as you do mine. No need to elaborate.
I will elaborate so that others aren’t misled by your distortions, and in a vain hope you might give them up.
And from what attainment are you elaborating exactly? Your view cannot be verified in the here-and-now, it is a mere belief in Nibbana 'after life', as all dukkha could be explained as 'old kamma'. So the problem of your view, besides that it is denying evolution, genetics, metabolism, science, and so forth, is that it proposes ignorance as condition for the entire universe, on top of that it is not verifiable in this lifetime. Which also begs the rethorical question, as to how Buddha could know that, after he exhaled his last breath, that he was released from whatever it was what made him came to be?

So please elaborate how you think that your view applies to reality, and that it is not a ridiculously made-up belief in ignorance as cause of the universe and everything, one religiously clings to, through which one sees life in its entirety as suffering.
:popcorn:

Alternatively, you can let go of your belief, and get liberated in this lifetime. If one understands DO, one doesn't believe in anything, because nothing can ultimately be known. So, if there is a sign in your mind, anything that could be described as a cause for something, you're not understanding DO.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

PeterC86 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 9:04 amAnd from what attainment are you elaborating exactly? Your view cannot be verified in the here-and-now, it is a mere belief in Nibbana 'after life', as all dukkha could be explained as 'old kamma'.
Any attainment would be better than your fake Āryatva. As for this "here-and-now" nonsense, this is just a way to misrepresent and belittle the Dhamma. Between you and former DooDoot with both of your "here-and-now" polemics and Paul with his misrepresentations of teachings on rebirth as "transmigration theories" and misrepresentations of past lives as "...once upon a time, in a lifetime, far, far away..." the Buddha's Dhamma is sustaining a horrendous attack in this very thread currently.
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Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Tl21G3lVl »

asahi wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:02 am In the dependent arising , the cessation of namarupa comes to cessation of sense bases . How do you understand this , the sense bases disappear right there ? Or it means something else . Following that , cessation of contact .
Not in the literal sense?
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Is the cessation of sense-bases interpretation a teaching on non-duality? Cessation of the subject-object duality? And is this equivalent to the cessation of "me" and "mine"?
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 4:32 pm Is the cessation of sense-bases interpretation a teaching on non-duality? Cessation of the subject-object duality? And is this equivalent to the cessation of "me" and "mine"?
You can find the non dual teachings in Advaita vedanta .
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