Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
Joe.c
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by Joe.c »

But if you ask your best friend who you know well and you know you can fully trust him then you do not need to investigate and you will not investigate, probably. You will simply follow his instructions (e.g. getting from A to B).
Even a best friend needs to be investigated, who know your friend is blind as well? If your friend is blind, then you are out of luck as well!
dadati wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:05 pm Informations regarding the language e.g. can be found in the sub commentary of the vinaya, written by Tipiṭakālaṅkāra. E.g. you can find these infos in: vinayālaṇkāra-ṭikā/34.46.
It is a sub commentary, just put it aside.

Use discourses (dhamma/sutta) and vinaya as guide. Then seek An ariya to confirm/align your understanding further.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
dadati
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by dadati »

Joe.c wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:36 pm
But if you ask your best friend who you know well and you know you can fully trust him then you do not need to investigate and you will not investigate, probably. You will simply follow his instructions (e.g. getting from A to B).
Even a best friend needs to be investigated, who know your friend is blind as well? If your friend is blind, then you are out of luck as well!
dadati wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:05 pm Informations regarding the language e.g. can be found in the sub commentary of the vinaya, written by Tipiṭakālaṅkāra. E.g. you can find these infos in: vinayālaṇkāra-ṭikā/34.46.
It is a sub commentary, just put it aside.

Use discourses (dhamma/sutta) and vinaya as guide. Then seek An ariya to confirm/align your understanding further.
We are not talking here about the Dhamma but about a language. We are talking about, simple as it is but on the other hand very important (as it is the language of the Tripitaka), about a language.

Yes of course if the topic would be the teaching, then the words of the Buddha are the top most important. I think no one questions that here. But the Buddha didn't spend his time teaching the language. You will not find grammar teachings in the Tripitaka. You have to look for other sources for this purpose.
dadati
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by dadati »

dadati wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:16 pm
Joe.c wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:36 pm
But if you ask your best friend who you know well and you know you can fully trust him then you do not need to investigate and you will not investigate, probably. You will simply follow his instructions (e.g. getting from A to B).
Even a best friend needs to be investigated, who know your friend is blind as well? If your friend is blind, then you are out of luck as well!
dadati wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:05 pm Informations regarding the language e.g. can be found in the sub commentary of the vinaya, written by Tipiṭakālaṅkāra. E.g. you can find these infos in: vinayālaṇkāra-ṭikā/34.46.
It is a sub commentary, just put it aside.

Use discourses (dhamma/sutta) and vinaya as guide. Then seek An ariya to confirm/align your understanding further.
We are not talking here about the Dhamma but about a language. We are talking about, simple as it is but on the other hand very important (as it is the language of the Tripitaka), about a language.

Yes of course if the topic would be the teaching, then the words of the Buddha are the top most important. I think no one questions that here. But the Buddha didn't spend his time teaching the language. You will not find grammar teachings in the Tripitaka. You have to look for other sources for this purpose.
Theras like Kaccayana Thera and Aggavaṃsa Thera taught the language. They have created grammar books which you can use to understand the Tripitaka.
BrokenBones
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by BrokenBones »

It appears that some people think that the Dhamma has greater meaning & depth if it is preserved & taught in Pali rather than 'local language'. I find the idea that the perfect, universal and timeless Dhamma needs an invented language that came into being centuries after the Buddha a tad nonsensical.

The Christians had similar ideas about Latin. I don't think Jesus delivered his sermon on the mount in Latin but it soon became the 'holy' language.
Joe.c
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by Joe.c »

dadati wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:16 pm We are not talking here about the Dhamma but about a language. We are talking about, simple as it is but on the other hand very important (as it is the language of the Tripitaka), about a language.
It is all about dhamma. Understanding the dhamma, practice the dhamma in daily life. From practice, the dukkhas are ending/stop. This is the main teaching.

It is NOT about the language. Language is used only to understand/converse the dhamma.

So know where are you at your practice. Most householders are still in 5 precepts level. When your wisdom mature, you will automatically has the ability to discern the language by continuously reflecting on it (even it is any type of language).
Yes of course if the topic would be the teaching, then the words of the Buddha are the top most important. I think no one questions that here. But the Buddha didn't spend his time teaching the language. You will not find grammar teachings in the Tripitaka. You have to look for other sources for this purpose.
If Buddha didn’t spend time to teach the language then why do you spend time learn the language.

Most of the people who speak Pali has long gone.

Do you think the current translator suddenly gain insight how they can speak proper pali? Doubt it.
Theras like Kaccayana Thera and Aggavaṃsa Thera taught the language. They have created grammar books which you can use to understand the Tripitaka.
Well if you can investigate about them then go ahead.

Unfortunately, i have wasted my time chasing all these theras. Then finally i found, they misunderstood the teaching.

Then, i realize alas i have wasted my time of not practicing true dhamma, then the time is being used to find out whether these theras know the true teaching or not. Most current theras are clueless.

Then i just go back to sutta, back to basic: N8FP - 5 precepts and right view. Then sati/samadhi.

Eventually, you will understand the current translation can be way off.

Good luck.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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robertk
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by robertk »

Pali is the word for the texts, Magadhi is the actual language . They are the same.


The standard epigraphical language used in the Gangetic plain and beyond in the last centuries B.C. and a little after was a form of Middle Indian rather close to Pali. We have no reason to believe that any other written language existed in that area at that time. Like Pali it is eclectic with word-forms originally from different dialectics and also with no standardized spelling (as was probably originally the case for Pali). So the first Buddhist texts written down in that area should have been in that form. Since the enlarged kingdom of Magadha eventually extended over nearly the whole Gangetic plain, that language was probably called the language of Magadha, if it had a name. And that of course is the correct name of the Pali language.

Pali is essentially a standardized and slightly Sanskritized version of that language. Māgadhī is a language described by the Prakrit grammarians and refers to a written dialect that developed later (early centuries A.D. ?) from the spoken dialect in some part of 'Greater Magadha'.

In effect, then, Pali is the closest we can get to the language spoken by the Buddha. And it cannot have been very different — we are talking about dialect differences here, not radically distinct languages.
http://www.buddha-l.org/archives/2013-May/018487.html
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mikenz66
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by mikenz66 »

BrokenBones wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:50 pm It appears that some people think that the Dhamma has greater meaning & depth if it is preserved & taught in Pali rather than 'local language'. I find the idea that the perfect, universal and timeless Dhamma needs an invented language that came into being centuries after the Buddha a tad nonsensical.

The Christians had similar ideas about Latin. I don't think Jesus delivered his sermon on the mount in Latin but it soon became the 'holy' language.
In both cases (Latin and Pali) one could argue that it's actually about practicality. Newton wrote his Principia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosoph ... athematica in Latin because educated Europeans could read Latin, but not necessarily English. Similarly, it was quite practical to have texts preserved in Pali, which any serious student could learn, rather than translate into numerous South and SE Asian languages. Things were different when texts spread to China, which had a universal written language quite early on, and of course things are very different today...

On the other hand, I appreciate that with my chanting books I can chant along with Thai, Sri Lankan, or Chinese Theravada groups. This would not be the case if they did everything in translation.

:heart:
Mike
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by BrokenBones »

mikenz66 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:14 am
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:50 pm It appears that some people think that the Dhamma has greater meaning & depth if it is preserved & taught in Pali rather than 'local language'. I find the idea that the perfect, universal and timeless Dhamma needs an invented language that came into being centuries after the Buddha a tad nonsensical.

The Christians had similar ideas about Latin. I don't think Jesus delivered his sermon on the mount in Latin but it soon became the 'holy' language.
In both cases (Latin and Pali) one could argue that it's actually about practicality. Newton wrote his Principia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosoph ... athematica in Latin because educated Europeans could read Latin, but not necessarily English. Similarly, it was quite practical to have texts preserved in Pali, which any serious student could learn, rather than translate into numerous South and SE Asian languages. Things were different when texts spread to China, which had a universal written language quite early on, and of course things are very different today...

On the other hand, I appreciate that with my chanting books I can chant along with Thai, Sri Lankan, or Chinese Theravada groups. This would not be the case if they did everything in translation.

:heart:
Mike
So the argument really is elitism. It always makes me cringe when I'm sat with a group of Westerners merrily mumbling/chanting words that have no meaning whatsoever to them... the Dhamma seems a secondary concern.

Pali may be an easier language to chant but the Buddha didn't appear interested in melodious recitation or the revering of a 'chosen' language. I'll take understanding over melody & 'vibrations' any day of the week.
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by Sam Vara »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:08 am
mikenz66 wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 2:14 am
BrokenBones wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:50 pm It appears that some people think that the Dhamma has greater meaning & depth if it is preserved & taught in Pali rather than 'local language'. I find the idea that the perfect, universal and timeless Dhamma needs an invented language that came into being centuries after the Buddha a tad nonsensical.

The Christians had similar ideas about Latin. I don't think Jesus delivered his sermon on the mount in Latin but it soon became the 'holy' language.
In both cases (Latin and Pali) one could argue that it's actually about practicality. Newton wrote his Principia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosoph ... athematica in Latin because educated Europeans could read Latin, but not necessarily English. Similarly, it was quite practical to have texts preserved in Pali, which any serious student could learn, rather than translate into numerous South and SE Asian languages. Things were different when texts spread to China, which had a universal written language quite early on, and of course things are very different today...

On the other hand, I appreciate that with my chanting books I can chant along with Thai, Sri Lankan, or Chinese Theravada groups. This would not be the case if they did everything in translation.

:heart:
Mike
So the argument really is elitism. It always makes me cringe when I'm sat with a group of Westerners merrily mumbling/chanting words that have no meaning whatsoever to them... the Dhamma seems a secondary concern.

Pali may be an easier language to chant but the Buddha didn't appear interested in melodious recitation or the revering of a 'chosen' language. I'll take understanding over melody & 'vibrations' any day of the week.
No, there are many different reasons, and not one standard or universally accepted argument. Mike addresses one of those reasons, which is that it is a lingua franca accessible to different language speakers. Just like Latin. Latin never was a "holy language". Entirely pragmatic, and nothing to do with elitism.

There probably are elitist arguments if you want to spend time rooting them out and getting upset about them, but that's another issue.
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mikenz66
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by mikenz66 »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:08 am So the argument really is elitism. It always makes me cringe when I'm sat with a group of Westerners merrily mumbling/chanting words that have no meaning whatsoever to them... the Dhamma seems a secondary concern.
Not at all. I just like participating. That's part of my practice. When I can, I attend a Thai monastery and chant the Pali (because that's what they do) and read the translation at the same time if I don't know the meaning. Actually, after a few years, I can remember the simple chants - which is useful when circumambulating the vihara... If Thai Theravada monastics and lay people chanted in Thai, I would have had to to improve my Thai a lot to participate. That would be OK, but when I spent a year in Hong Kong about 15 years ago, I found a local Theravada group who were Chinese speaking. But since they did the chants in Pali, I could fit right in. Similarly when I occasionally visit a Sri Lankan monastery I can join in. So, by learning enough Pali to follow the chants I have participated with groups with three different native languages, where otherwise I'd need to learn three very different languages to participate. It's also really useful to know a little Pali when discussing Dhamma with people who don't speak good English. It's all about having a common language. Mahasi Sayadaw translated his "Progress of Insight" essay http://www.aimwell.org/progress.html from Burmese to Pali, which made it accessible to German, English, Thai, Sinhala, etc monastics. The translation at the link to English is by a German.

:heart:
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by dadati »

Joe.c wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:31 am
Unfortunately, i have wasted my time chasing all these theras. Then finally i found, they misunderstood the teaching.

Then, i realize alas i have wasted my time of not practicing true dhamma, then the time is being used to find out whether these theras know the true teaching or not. Most current theras are clueless.

Then i just go back to sutta, back to basic: N8FP - 5 precepts and right view. Then sati/samadhi.

Eventually, you will understand the current translation can be way off.

Good luck.
Dear valuable Joe,

You did really well. I myself crossed my way with a lot of worthless teachings as well. I dropped them as I recognized their nature.

We are really lucky that we found the teachings of the Buddha. And we still have a chance to escape from the samsara.

May you progress well and be free soon.
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by Johann »

BrokenBones wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:07 am Magic?

Vibrations?

Elitism?

Reluctance to use several words to convey the full meaning of one Pali word?

Because of its antiquity and that it never was a spoken language? Perhaps it gives commentators the ability to redefine certain words (words, whose Sanskrit counterpart meanings sometimes seem more appropriate & fitting).
It's no more a special language for certain purpose, good householder, but given away from not so faithful monks longer ago, for common creativity. As languages are used by common people for common purposes, they, even Pali, lose meaning, authority and their power.
Joe.c
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by Joe.c »

dadati wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:36 pm Dear valuable Joe,

You did really well. I myself crossed my way with a lot of worthless teachings as well. I dropped them as I recognized their nature.

We are really lucky that we found the teachings of the Buddha. And we still have a chance to escape from the samsara.

May you progress well and be free soon.
Just remember to proof everything (Ehipassiko - come and verified yourself personally). If someone say something that can't be proofed here and now (akaliko), then put it aside first. Proceed with something that can be seen/know/understand here and now.

O yeah. Same thing with whatever I said above. If it doesn't benefit you, put it aside or throw it aside. No worry.

Good luck.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
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Ontheway
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by Ontheway »

Pali language is unique. That's why the historical Buddha allowed all his followers to study Dhamma using this language. And not others such as Sanskrit.

Just like Citta, Mana, Viññāṇa...all describing the mental quality of the mind; but English is only using consciousness by far... It is insufficient to convey the Buddha's teachings in complete sense.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
BrokenBones
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Re: Why is Pali deemed a 'special' language?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ontheway wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 3:21 am Pali language is unique. That's why the historical Buddha allowed all his followers to study Dhamma using this language. And not others such as Sanskrit.

Just like Citta, Mana, Viññāṇa...all describing the mental quality of the mind; but English is only using consciousness by far... It is insufficient to convey the Buddha's teachings in complete sense.
Now you're just making stuff up 😅

Few questions...

When did Pali appear?

Are you actually saying that the Buddha spoke and taught in Pali?

Did the Buddha urge his followers to teach in local dialects?
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