10 precept female ordination

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
justhere
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2021 4:06 pm

10 precept female ordination

Post by justhere »

Greetings Dhamma Friends :anjali:

Do you know good monasteries whitin Theravada where it is possible for a female to ordain as a 10 precept nun? Not 8 precept and not Bhikkhuni ordination.

I am already aware of the Siladhara order at Amaravati Buddhist Monastery and that is my main interest, but would like to know if there are other genuine alternatives.

Thank you for your kind efforts.

May we all strive rightly to see The Dhamma in this very lifetime.

:namaste:
User avatar
JamesTheGiant
Posts: 2145
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:41 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: 10 precept female ordination

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Some I know of are: Newbury monastery near Melbourne, Australia https://nbm.org.au/

Dhammasara in Western Australia for full bhikkhuni ordination, but I know of one nun who has stayed at 10 precepts for years because she doesn't want to go to the hundreds of rules.
https://bswa.org/our-locations/ordaining-as-a-nun/

If you contact these people they can probably give you more information about 10-precept-female-friendly monasteries in your country. https://www.bhikkhuni.net/
dharmacorps
Posts: 2298
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: 10 precept female ordination

Post by dharmacorps »

There are supposedly quite a few options in Thailand as a Mae Chee. There are some Anagarikas that are female associated with monasteries in the US.
User avatar
NotMe
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:41 pm

Re: 10 precept female ordination

Post by NotMe »

dharmacorps wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:08 pm There are supposedly quite a few options in Thailand as a Mae Chee. There are some Anagarikas that are female associated with monasteries in the US.
You mentioned US:

https://pluralism.org/women-in-american-buddhism

Metta

:anjali:
Suvira
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:01 pm

Re: 10 precept female ordination

Post by Suvira »

Some I know of are: Newbury monastery near Melbourne, Australia https://nbm.org.au/

Dhammasara in Western Australia for full bhikkhuni ordination, but I know of one nun who has stayed at 10 precepts for years because she doesn't want to go to the hundreds of rules.
https://bswa.org/our-locations/ordaining-as-a-nun/

If you contact these people they can probably give you more information about 10-precept-female-friendly monasteries in your country. https://www.bhikkhuni.net/
Hi James and everyone,

As OP likely knows, 10 precept nun ordination is distinct from samaneri or bhikkhuni. Bhikkhuni organisations do not typically offer a 10 precept nun ordination form.

I spent five years at Newbury. I am no longer at that monastery. I am quite certain that it is NOT possible to obtain 10 precept (I.e. mae chee, sayalay or dasasil) ordination at there. The only forms that are offered are bhikkhuni and samaneri.

I would recommend contacting Ajahn Hasapanna directly re Dhammasara, but their normal pathway does not include 10 precept ordination.

Alliance for Bhikkhunis is a lay organisation, better to just talk to the relevant nun teacher directly.

I am curious as to why OP is not interested in bhikkhuni ordination. The bhikkhunis I know are mostly lovely.
User avatar
JamesTheGiant
Posts: 2145
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:41 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: 10 precept female ordination

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Suvira wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:49 am ...10 precept nun ordination is distinct from samaneri...
Thanks for the correction. :anjali:
How are they different?
User avatar
Johann
Posts: 619
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: 10 precept female ordination

Post by Johann »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:36 am
Suvira wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:49 am ...10 precept nun ordination is distinct from samaneri...
Thanks for the correction. :anjali:
How are they different?
They aren't, isnt a different, actually, and that's possible the point, good householder. Refuge & 10 Sila = Pabbajito.

As for the request of the topic, good householder, if one is serious, is really able to lower ones hackles, which is surely total not easy for a western/modern raised woman, it worthy to try to find Nissaya with the Nuns Sangha in Cambodia (under the guidance of the Dhammayut order) Wat Maha Panna. It's also a complete Sangha able to act. But again: if in the common 'rights' and gender-stupity, and opposing, better stay far away and let them have peace and good training. If a faithful mind and no skeptic with wonders, it's only about becoming Khema (Khmer) in the land of wonder.

For inspiration, a novice ordination.

Young "girls" asking for going forth

But good to remember that only less woman are willing to travel to Kampuja, as the Sublime Buddha noted.
Suvira
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:01 pm

Re: 10 precept female ordination

Post by Suvira »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 7:36 am
Suvira wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 5:49 am ...10 precept nun ordination is distinct from samaneri...
Thanks for the correction. :anjali:
How are they different?
If you were a ten precept nun of some years attempting to go for higher ordination as a bhikkhuni, you would most likely have to get your previous time as a ten precept nun assessed as to whether it was samaneri (or sikkhamana) equivalent. It is not guaranteed that it will or won't be recognised.

At Newbury for example, the policy when I was there was that ten precept nuns walk behind the samaneris (which could theoretically include teenagers with samaneri ordination from Sri Lanka).

If I visited a dasasilmata place as a samaneri, my samaneri ordination might not be recognised either (we had to play "musical chairs" with the line when I visited a dasasil place as a samaneri).

I think the basic point is that sikkhamana/samaneri ordination as part of a womens' training pathway is meant to be premonastic (there is a bhikkhuni order, maybe you can ordain later), whereas sayalay/mae chee/DSM are typically paramonastic (I.e. there is no bhikkhuni order, this is the highest ordination form you can ever take).

The main other differences I can think of right now are the following:

-mae chees, sayalays and many dasasils do not wear proper monastic robes. They wear uncut cloth or other clothing which is deliberately meant to reflect the fact they are not bhikkhunis or in a pre-bhikkhuni pathway (bhikkhunis and sikkhamanas/samaneris wear cut cloth)
-mae chee, sayalays and dasasil ordinations are always given by a bhikkhu. Samaneri ordination may be given by a bhikkhu or a bhikkhuni (most often a bhikkhuni where they exist)
-there is a complex cultural history to the development of the mae chee, sayalay and dasasil ordination forms.
In some countries, these nuns face additional constraints, such as being discouraged from going on almsround (I understand this has been a shift in recent decades in Thailand and Myanmar). Some of these additional cultural practices give another layer of ambiguity.
-there is additional cultural ambiguity around the line and seating arrangements for mae chee, dsm, sayalay. In many places they sit on the floor with the laity, while the samaneras sit with the sangha.
-there are points of dhamma and vinaya which specifically reference samaneras/samaneris, it is not clear that these should apply to dasasilmatas, sayalays and mae chees.
-**the institutions which give these ordinations have typically made clear statements (or this is implies by sangha administration in their country) that they are not giving a samaneri ordination.**
-these nuns themselves do not therefore typically believe that what they have taken is a samaneri ordination

What might possibly happen later is that another organisation or teacher might interact with the candidate in the context of giving higher ordination, and decisions have to be made as to whether to ask the candidate to retrain as a samaneri. In a dual ordination, this is up to the bhikkhuni preceptor. As many bhikkhuni preceptors now train their own samaneris, in most cases, they would likely want you to have come via their samaneri system from day one.

You would need to seek an "official" opinion, who knows how it would work out until you ask.

In places like Taiwan, Korea, and in Theravada bhikkhuni circles, samaneri is already the lowest vinaya based ordination form given, what is given to the kids and young girls. There is nothing below that. Which is why bhikkhuni monasteries don't typically give 10 precept nun ordination, because it would mean supporting a non-vinaya-based form. They might be able to accommodate a visitor with these forms but nearly definitely not give one in the first instance.

I know that the women who hold paramonastic ordination forms have given a lot to Buddhism, some of them are great teachers. But now we see a lot of illogical statements being thrown about, like "fully ordained siladhara", it is important to be clear about basic facts relating to the three types of women's ordination in textual Buddhism.
User avatar
JamesTheGiant
Posts: 2145
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2015 8:41 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: 10 precept female ordination

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Suvira, thank-you for the explanation, wow it sure is complex for women.
:anjali:
User avatar
Ṭhānuttamo
Posts: 188
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:40 pm
Location: Kefenrod, Germany
Contact:

Re: 10 precept female ordination

Post by Ṭhānuttamo »

justhere wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:08 pm Greetings Dhamma Friends :anjali:

Do you know good monasteries whitin Theravada where it is possible for a female to ordain as a 10 precept nun? Not 8 precept and not Bhikkhuni ordination.

I am already aware of the Siladhara order at Amaravati Buddhist Monastery and that is my main interest, but would like to know if there are other genuine alternatives.

Thank you for your kind efforts.

May we all strive rightly to see The Dhamma in this very lifetime.

:namaste:


In Pa Auk Monasteries in Myanmar that is possible without much hassle, with a lot of time for meditation. In Thailand and Malaysia they have branches where the situation should be the same (in Nandaka, Malaysia, this is certainly an option). I think that at my monastery (Ranagirilena, Sri Lanka) this shouldn't be a problem either, depending also on the candidate of course.
User avatar
Johann
Posts: 619
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: 10 precept female ordination

Post by Johann »

A. Bhikkhu wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:56 am
justhere wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:08 pm Greetings Dhamma Friends :anjali:

Do you know good monasteries whitin Theravada where it is possible for a female to ordain as a 10 precept nun? Not 8 precept and not Bhikkhuni ordination.

I am already aware of the Siladhara order at Amaravati Buddhist Monastery and that is my main interest, but would like to know if there are other genuine alternatives.

Thank you for your kind efforts.

May we all strive rightly to see The Dhamma in this very lifetime.

:namaste:


In Pa Auk Monasteries in Myanmar that is possible without much hassle, with a lot of time for meditation. In Thailand and Malaysia they have branches where the situation should be the same (in Nandaka, Malaysia, this is certainly an option). I think that at my monastery (Ranagirilena, Sri Lanka) this shouldn't be a problem either, depending also on the candidate of course.
Bhante, it's improper, does not support faith, to fold hands and bow down to lay people.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: 10 precept female ordination

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Johann,
Johann wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:07 am Bhante, it's improper, does not support faith, to fold hands and bow down to lay people.
Providing useful information as A. Bhikkhu has done supports faith much more than incoherent ramblings, whinging and gibberish.

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: 10 precept female ordination

Post by asahi »

Suvira wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 11:25 pm If you were a ten precept nun of some years attempting to go for higher ordination as a bhikkhuni, you would most likely have to get your previous time as a ten precept nun assessed as to whether it was samaneri (or sikkhamana) equivalent.
Hi isnt samaneri observe 10 precepts ?
Isnt sikkhamana has some extra precepts ?

:thanks:
No bashing No gossiping
Suvira
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2022 12:01 pm

Re: 10 precept female ordination

Post by Suvira »

asahi wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 5:32 pm
Suvira wrote: Sun Jul 10, 2022 11:25 pm If you were a ten precept nun of some years attempting to go for higher ordination as a bhikkhuni, you would most likely have to get your previous time as a ten precept nun assessed as to whether it was samaneri (or sikkhamana) equivalent.
Hi isnt samaneri observe 10 precepts ?
Isnt sikkhamana has some extra precepts ?

:thanks:
A samaneri observes ten precepts, but not every woman who observes ten precepts is a samaneri.

The nature of the precepts observed by sikkhamanas is not clear from the vinaya texts, apart from that it involves "six precepts", kept without breach (which ones? In some textual traditions, they are required to keep some pacittiyas, possibly in addition to basic pre-parajika training). They are senior to samaneris. Some places offer a sikkhamana pathway, others don't (I.e. due to lack of textual clarity).

The text of the vinaya requires two years training as a sikkhamana, not samaneri, prior to ordination. But many bhikkhuni places will just substitute samaneri training because they don't know what sikkhamana really means because the texts are ambiguous & treat the two types as equivalent.

I don't really want to derail OPs question, which isn't about the text of the vinaya. Siladhara, etc, is just a different thing to the types of ordination form referenced in the canon.
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: 10 precept female ordination

Post by asahi »

Suvira wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:07 pm A samaneri observes ten precepts, but not every woman who observes ten precepts is a samaneri.
But why then the need called woman who observe ten precepts a nun ? :thinking:

Suvira wrote: Sun Aug 14, 2022 12:07 pm The nature of the precepts observed by sikkhamanas is not clear from the vinaya texts, apart from that it involves "six precepts", kept without breach (which ones? In some textual traditions, they are required to keep some pacittiyas, possibly in addition to basic pre-parajika training). They are senior to samaneris. Some places offer a sikkhamana pathway, others don't (I.e. due to lack of textual clarity).

The text of the vinaya requires two years training as a sikkhamana, not samaneri, prior to ordination. But many bhikkhuni places will just substitute samaneri training because they don't know what sikkhamana really means because the texts are ambiguous & treat the two types as equivalent.
For your info incase you are interested ,
this is what i know , Sikkhamana has another six besides ten precepts . There are several version . Here is one of it . According to Mūlasarvāstivāda bhikkhuni vinaya :

1. not allowed to stroll alone on pathway
2. not allowed to cross the river alone
3. not allowed to have bodily contact with men
4. not allowed to stays with men in same building
5. not allowed to be a matchmaker
6. not allowed to hide bhikkhuni grave offence


Ps . Dharmaguptaka-vinaya are different precepts but few of it appear overlapping with ten precepts .
No bashing No gossiping
Post Reply