sense bases disappear ?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
asahi
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

I dont think Buddha's teachings is something can be inclined to conceal instead of making it as plain and clear as possible , unambiguous . 😎

Here is the parallel , you might want to check it out yourself .

SA 241 (二四一) samyukta agama

燒熱

如是我聞:

一時,佛住毘舍離獼猴池側重閣講堂。

爾時,世尊告諸比丘:「愚癡無聞凡夫,比丘!寧以火燒熱銅籌以燒其目,令其熾然,不以眼識取於色相、取隨形好。所以者何?取於色相、取隨形好故,墮惡趣中如沈鐵丸。

「愚癡無聞凡夫,寧燒鐵錐以鑽其耳,不以耳識取其聲相、取隨聲好。所以者何?耳識取聲相、取隨聲好者,身壞命終墮惡趣中如沈鐵丸。

.........

「愚癡無聞凡夫,寧以剛鐵利槍以刺其身,不以身識取於觸相及隨觸好。所以者何?以取觸相及隨觸好故,身壞命終墮惡趣中如沈鐵丸。
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retrofuturist
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Sorry, I can't read Chinese and aren't all that fussed on parallels. I can read enough of the Pali to clearly see what's being referenced in each section.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
asahi
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

So be it . :stirthepot:
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PeterC86
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by PeterC86 »

If the buddhadhamma is misunderstood, this will lead to a view not in line with the buddhadhamma, which will lead to a practice not in line with the buddhadhamma, which will not lead to the cessation of suffering, instead it will bring more suffering, beyond the ability of the mind to oversee.

Hence the importance of a right understanding of the buddhadhamma. The buddha explained the buddhadhamma for us to understand. However, because the buddhadhamma leads to a point that reaches the extent of language, i.e. dissolving of dualities; Nibbana; the unconditioned, as such, can not be reached through sheer reasoning. Therefore, it serves no use to discuss Nibbana. But what can be logically understood, is the workings of DO, which is the heart of the buddhadhamma, and the 'way' to Nibbana.

Hence the importance of a right understanding of DO, if one is set on Nibbana. The widespread explanation of DO in the West, arrived at by scholars and scholarly Theravada and Mahayana monks, might be widespread, but this doesn't say anything about the explanation being in accordance with the buddhadhamma.

More so, the translation of the Pali texts to English by those same scholarly monks, is automatically conformed by their understanding of those texts. So if their understanding is not in line with the buddhadhamma, their translation of certain suttas will not be in line with the buddhadhamma.

Even more so, these texts are based on what is believed to be what Buddha said, although these texts are based on the words of a community of monks after the first schism in the sangha. Now maybe these texts were on the right understanding side of the buddhadhamma after the schism, but maybe they are not. Hence the importance of reflecting on those texts in one's reality, as they can not be outrightly trusted as being the actual Buddha's words, if one is serious about this 'stuff'.

So finally, roughly, there are two understandings of DO in the way it is presented, that one can arrive at.

First, the chain of DO is understood to be a physical process. This entails what most Theravada monks, including translators such as Bodhi and the like, and some scholars, arrive at. Which seems a plausible conclusion if one studies the Pali Canon. The Pali Canon of the Theravada sect explains DO as being physical, hence the importance of transmigration, kamma, N8FP, Vinaya, and so forth. However, as explained previously, the Pali Canon can not be outrightly trusted as being the actual Buddha's words. So instead of blindly trusting the entire Suttapitaka, it seems wise to reflect upon this explanation of DO in our experience, if one is trying to get to the heart of the buddhadhamma. Some people resort to faith, which is fine with me.

If one is reflecting upon the previous understanding, one can come to realize that such an understanding would entail that some kind of intention preceded and is the cause of life, life is intrinsically seen as suffering, cessation of suffering can not be arrived at in the here-and-now, one needs to believe in transmigration, and this transmigration is to be believed to just have happened at some point in time, although everything, including intention and actions, is understood as anatta, somehow there is a distinction made between right and wrong behaviour, and the N8FP is based upon this assumed distinction between right and wrong, although everything is anatta, regardless, this N8FP path is assumed to lead to the cessation of suffering, although this would entail the dissolving of life itself, but somehow it is believed that the Buddha was able to discern after exhaling his last breath that he was released, or he had foreseen it. Well, that is one understanding.


The second understanding would be that DO is understood to be a mental process, where DO is seen as an identification process through which the self is mentally born and dies. This means that everything that is to be regarded as existing or non-existing is based upon interpretation of the mind of the sense-bases. This understanding of DO necessarily entails that nothing can ultimately be known, and all cognition is merely conventional. So one needs to be ready to let go of all assumed knowledge. It is a mental dissolving, so no 'right' or 'wrong' behaviour is discerned, and there is no practice. This understanding is achieved through contemplation. This understanding is in line with the teachings of Nagarjuna, but it is not in line with the teachings in the Pali Canon surrounding the outlining of DO.

They can not both be right, hence the importance of critically investigating the teachings for those who seek cessation of suffering, as explained above. Liberation of suffering as explained by both understandings necessarily differs to. Still, only one leads to actual cessation of suffering, but according to one understanding this cessation might happen in some 'future life'.

Alternatively, one can resort to faith. But if one resorts to faith, hanging around on a forum where people critically and logically investigate the teachings, might not be a satisfying experience. For them it might be more satisfying to join a community with likeminded people, like a monastic one.

I remember to have written something similar, not too long ago.
Last edited by PeterC86 on Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
Joe.c
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Joe.c »

PeterC86 wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:03 am Hence the importance of a right understanding of the buddhadhamma. The buddha explained the buddhadhamma for us to understand. However, because the buddhadhamma leads to a point that reaches the extent of language, i.e. dissolving of dualities; Nibbana; the unconditioned, as such, can not be reached through sheer reasoning. Therefore, it serves no use to discuss Nibbana. But what can be logically understood, is the workings of DO, which is the heart of the buddhadhamma, and the 'way' to Nibbana.
Let me just analyze this only. Since there is so much wrong views yet.

No, if you haven't developed your faculties, there is no way for you to understand DO properly.

No faculties development means no wisdom. It is plain and simple.

DO is not about logical teaching.

Please stop try to make DO too simple, it is not!
Last edited by Joe.c on Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

I don’t think we need to shout at each other in caps.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Joe.c »

Since no one want to state wrong view as wrong view. I will do it so he didn’t misled others. 😀

I add some colors hopefully you like it now. 😀
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Joe.c wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:13 pm Since no one want to state wrong view as wrong view. I will do it so he didn’t misled others. 😀

I add some colors hopefully you like it now. 😀
Why would you purposely try to annoy someone?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Joe.c »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:23 pm Why would you purposely try to annoy someone?
Why would you reply then? 😅

Btw, Who is being annoyed? Your body or your mind or your feeling or your ego or your senses or …? What happen to all the study now? 😅

I thought the topic is to make senses bases to disappear. 😅
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Joe.c wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 1:04 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 12:23 pm Why would you purposely try to annoy someone?
Why would you reply then? 😅

Btw, Who is being annoyed? Your body or your mind or your feeling or your ego or your senses or …? What happen to all the study now? 😅

I thought the topic is to make senses bases to disappear. 😅
I didn’t say I was annoyed. I said why would you try to annoy.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Jack19990101
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Re -
PeterC86
Re: sense bases disappear ?
Post Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:03 am


There are 4 versions of dependent co-arising.
Let's go with the first 2 versions - mandate view on co-arising in forward & backward order.

Imo - the versions are to establish Right view. It is to abolish common wrong views.

Forward order - it is opposing Creator God, or an eternal self or entity. I think most of us don't have problem.

I think we might have more problem on the backward order -
Backward order - opposing Nillism. At the end, it is consciousness gives rise to namarupa, namarupa gives rise to consciousness. It is a dead lock.
Even if we are dead, avijja(tanha) gonna give arise to consciousness, food, mental sankhara & phassa again.

If one has taken backward order as a training How-To, it probably also implies wrong assumption on Nibbana/emptiness/anatta too, most likely he errs on the edge of nil.

I think there gonna be question on - if we destroy avijja, would it be nil? That is another topic, we can talk when it suits.

Again, if we train, we train by Sila, Punna Samadhi - even if they don't seem to address cessation of rebirth at all, but that is the solution, prescribed by Buddha.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:04 am Greetings Mike,

Fortunately for you, the sankhata-dhammas of paticcasamuppada are all fabricated phenomena, so it can be relevant to your practice, rather than conjecture or rationalisation.

:anjali:

Metta,
Paul. :)
I don't have a problem with the texts. I was talking about the various conjectures on this thread about exactly what the texts mean. You have one particular conjecture, which may or may not be helpful to others.

:heart:
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Well, yes... usually when having a conversation about a technical subject, it's important to define terms upfront, in order to get a common understanding and common lexicon.

Even if common meanings cannot be agreed upon, the differences in understanding can at least be understood and acknowledged. If they're not, the remainder of the conversation is simply going to be people "talking past" each other. In that regard, this particular discussion topic has been far better than most.

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

There are two quite different interpretations of DO here. But I'm curious as to whether they lead people to practice in different ways.
Any examples?
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Spiny,
Spiny Norman wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:21 am Any examples?
Observing the mutual relationship between vinnana and the constituents of nama-rupa, and how they shape the evolving mind-consciousness.

Supporting the following of the instructions to Bahiya, through better awareness of what bifurcation would be, if engaged in.

Supporting the practice of seeing formations as "a dart" (per my favourite meditation instructions) and the resulting inclination towards dispassion and calm that stills the mind.

Improving daily awareness that that which is being craved is a fabrication, (fleeting and ephemeral) rather than something extant.

Improved daily awareness of other people's paranoia being theirs (i.e. their fabrications) rather than something objective or substantial to be addressed. Paired with the "frames of reference" of Satipatthana it improves insight as to how people can see matters differently, based upon how they frame them.

Confidence in nirodha, thus confidence in nibbana, thus confidence in the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path.

All of the above being "here-present, timeless, inviting inspection, leading onward, to be realized by the wise each for himself" rather than coming second-hand "by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, 'This contemplative is our teacher.'"

I do not see how a three lifetime model, whether a complex Buddhaghosa-style one, or a more simplified Bodhi-style one, would assist in any of that... but I invite others more inclined towards them to explain.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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