How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

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frank k
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by frank k »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:44 pm
frank k wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:06 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:02 pm ...
You appear to be saying that sacci kiriya and metta cannot in themselves offer protection, and that a claim they can is "bs"; but that individuals can have supernormal powers, and that there are devas who can befriend us to help us. That's an interesting position. What would you say to those who would claim that supernormal powers of the kind to protect the body from burning, and the existence of devas is also bs?
Anything we can't do ourselves or haven't personally witnessed, it's fair to question or rightly wonder if it's BS.
Your phrase "Sounds like total BS" seems a little stronger than fair questioning or wondering. If people haven't experienced personally what you claim to have experienced, then presumably they would be justified in being equally dismissive. Devas, meditative visions, devas talking to you, knowing powerful meditators, the story about your mother: sounds like total BS. :thinking:
The difference is, I'm giving reference points from personal experience that is direct, witnessed, or from someone living that I consider reliable, whereas the incidents where I say "sound like total BS", are referring to non EBT scripture that is dubious with no known real examples from history.
The other difference is, you just questioned my integrity and credibility by calling it BS. This is one reason why things of this nature are not shared more openly, because then we have to deal with rudeness, fools and heretics.
I am not calling BS on someone else's integrity, direct experience, or credibility, I'm questioning the non EBT scripture making dubious claims.
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frank k
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by frank k »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:02 pm ...

You appear to be saying that sacci kiriya and metta cannot in themselves offer protection, and that a claim they can is "bs"; but that individuals can have supernormal powers, and that there are devas who can befriend us to help us. That's an interesting position. What would you say to those who would claim that supernormal powers of the kind to protect the body from burning, and the existence of devas is also bs?
Just want to make it clear you're making the forums a place where people won't want to share their personal experience.
Rather than getting thanks and appreciation for taking the time to share something I'm pretty sure would be of interest, I get your BS.
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by Sam Vara »

frank k wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:15 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:44 pm
frank k wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:06 pm

Anything we can't do ourselves or haven't personally witnessed, it's fair to question or rightly wonder if it's BS.
Your phrase "Sounds like total BS" seems a little stronger than fair questioning or wondering. If people haven't experienced personally what you claim to have experienced, then presumably they would be justified in being equally dismissive. Devas, meditative visions, devas talking to you, knowing powerful meditators, the story about your mother: sounds like total BS. :thinking:
The difference is, I'm giving reference points from personal experience that is direct, witnessed, or from someone living that I consider reliable, whereas the incidents where I say "sound like total BS", are referring to non EBT scripture that is dubious with no known real examples from history.
That difference seems to be based on a criterion which is your own personal choice. If someone considers that non-EBT scripture to be reliable, and considers that second-hand personal anecdotes on the internet are dubious, then they would be justified in referring to the latter as BS, wouldn't they?
The other difference is, you just questioned my integrity and credibility by calling it BS. This is one reason why things of this nature are not shared more openly, because then we have to deal with rudeness, fools and heretics.
Mutatis mutandis, the same applies, doesn't it. If calling something BS is to question integrity and credibility, then your post questions the integrity of the relevant scriptures, and the credulity of those who believe them and hold them in high regard. Those people might think that questioning the scriptures in the way you did is rude, foolish, or heretical.
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by Sam Vara »

frank k wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:27 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:02 pm ...

You appear to be saying that sacci kiriya and metta cannot in themselves offer protection, and that a claim they can is "bs"; but that individuals can have supernormal powers, and that there are devas who can befriend us to help us. That's an interesting position. What would you say to those who would claim that supernormal powers of the kind to protect the body from burning, and the existence of devas is also bs?
Just want to make it clear you're making the forums a place where people won't want to share their personal experience.
Rather than getting thanks and appreciation for taking the time to share something I'm pretty sure would be of interest, I get your BS.
Calm down a bit, frank. People are very welcome to share their personal experience, and for the record I do thank you for it. I was pointing out that the same accusation of BS could be levelled against you. You only shared your personal experience as a counter to my questioning of your consistency. Again, mutatis mutandis, one might with as much justification claim that you were making the forum a place where those who - like Ven. Pesala - want to reference the power of loving kindness or sacci kiriya won't want to share their thoughts.
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

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frank k wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:55 am Does Vism. or the commentaries describe how powers of metta or sacchi kiryiya actually work, in protecting the reciter from fatal harm?
I don't think so, but the Milindapañha's account of Sivi getting his lost eyes back does. The short answer is that it happens by magic. It's an axiom of all Indian dharma traditions that there's magic in truth. But as to why this is so, I guess the answer to this would belong among the simsapa leaves that the Buddha didn't hold in his hand.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/mil5.1.5
frank k wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:55 amSacci Kiryiya powers also sounds like total BS.
If it actually worked that way, wouldn't you think arahants during the Buddha's time would have invoked that power to do things like, "If the Dhamma is genuine and efficacious, may true Dhamma never die and become infected with corrupted forms of Buddhism with superstitions, wrong views and corruption for the entire world aeon?"
I don't think it's ever been claimed that saccakiriyās are unlimited in their power. Angulimāla's saccakiriyā power, for example, was enough to help a woman through a difficult pregnancy, but not apparently enough to stop flying bricks and stones from hitting him.
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by frank k »

You're right that people are sensitive about religion (and politics, and a number of things) and could easily be offended and draw a connection where none was stated.
Maybe you should go back and read what I wrote that you first responded to.
Someone quoted scripture.
I said the scripture sounded like BS.
And then I proceeded to explain why it sounded like BS.
It was clear I was questioning the scripture, and not the credulity of the poster.
If I had only posted, "that sounds like BS" without any qualifying explanation, then I could agree with your point of seeming to attack the credulity of the poster.

This is what you said after I shared detailed personal experience:
Devas, meditative visions, devas talking to you, knowing powerful meditators, the story about your mother: sounds like total BS. :thinking:
without any further clarification, and an emoji that looks sarcastic, mocking, dismissive, or obviously something that is going to be interpreted as a pejorative.


They are comparable situations only for those of weak discernment who don't read and think about things carefully before responding, weak morality for not just admitting wrong and apologizing, weak discernment for lying to themselves and still believing they're right.



Sam Vara wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:17 pm
frank k wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 12:27 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:02 pm ...

You appear to be saying that sacci kiriya and metta cannot in themselves offer protection, and that a claim they can is "bs"; but that individuals can have supernormal powers, and that there are devas who can befriend us to help us. That's an interesting position. What would you say to those who would claim that supernormal powers of the kind to protect the body from burning, and the existence of devas is also bs?
Just want to make it clear you're making the forums a place where people won't want to share their personal experience.
Rather than getting thanks and appreciation for taking the time to share something I'm pretty sure would be of interest, I get your BS.
Calm down a bit, frank. People are very welcome to share their personal experience, and for the record I do thank you for it. I was pointing out that the same accusation of BS could be levelled against you. You only shared your personal experience as a counter to my questioning of your consistency. Again, mutatis mutandis, one might with as much justification claim that you were making the forum a place where those who - like Ven. Pesala - want to reference the power of loving kindness or sacci kiriya won't want to share their thoughts.
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

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Does anyone seriously believe angulimala had power to prevent bad pregnancy with sacci kiryaya?
Or that by simply reciting 7 words from 7 awakening factors can instantly cure fatal illness?
Then why even have vinaya rules regulating medicine, or have a need for medicine at all? Any ailment, any problem, just chant 7 words from bojjhanga and make a sacci kiriyaya.

There are genuinely fantastic and hard to believe things in reality described in the suttas, realized by people with strong samādhi not just in Buddhism but any legitimate meditative practice, but as long as people allow the Dharma to be corrupted by fake scriptures just because they pander to people's desire for a magical easy instant quick fix, then it casts the entire body of Dharma as dubious. Rebirth, karma, devas, jhāna, all get tainted with the stain of fiction and fantasy.

Mumfie wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 7:10 pm
frank k wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:55 am Does Vism. or the commentaries describe how powers of metta or sacchi kiryiya actually work, in protecting the reciter from fatal harm?
I don't think so, but the Milindapañha's account of Sivi getting his lost eyes back does. The short answer is that it happens by magic. It's an axiom of all Indian dharma traditions that there's magic in truth. But as to why this is so, I guess the answer to this would belong among the simsapa leaves that the Buddha didn't hold in his hand.

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/mil5.1.5
frank k wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:55 amSacci Kiryiya powers also sounds like total BS.
If it actually worked that way, wouldn't you think arahants during the Buddha's time would have invoked that power to do things like, "If the Dhamma is genuine and efficacious, may true Dhamma never die and become infected with corrupted forms of Buddhism with superstitions, wrong views and corruption for the entire world aeon?"
I don't think it's ever been claimed that saccakiriyās are unlimited in their power. Angulimāla's saccakiriyā power, for example, was enough to help a woman through a difficult pregnancy, but not apparently enough to stop flying bricks and stones from hitting him.
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by Sam Vara »

frank k wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 10:54 am
Maybe you should go back and read what I wrote that you first responded to.
OK. Done that, Frank.
Someone quoted scripture.
Well, they referred to it rather than quoted it, but OK.
I said the scripture sounded like BS.
Yes.
And then I proceeded to explain why it sounded like BS.
Yes.
It was clear I was questioning the scripture, and not the credulity of the poster.
OK.
If I had only posted, "that sounds like BS" without any qualifying explanation, then I could agree with your point of seeming to attack the credulity of the poster.
I didn't make any point about you attacking the credulity of the poster. Who is it who should go back and re-read stuff, Frank?
without any further clarification, and an emoji that looks sarcastic, mocking, dismissive, or obviously something that is going to be interpreted as a pejorative.
That emoji means "thinking", Frank, or that's what it tells me when I hover over it. You are of course free to read into it anything you like. That's your responsibility, not mine.
They are comparable situations only for those of weak discernment who don't read and think about things carefully before responding, weak morality for not just admitting wrong and apologizing, weak discernment for lying to themselves and still believing they're right.


Ah, the Buddhist personal insults! What about my dana and samadhi?
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by frank k »

Sam Vara wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:06 pm ...
Mutatis mutandis, the same applies, doesn't it. If calling something BS is to question integrity and credibility, then your post questions the integrity of the relevant scriptures, and the credulity of those who believe them and hold them in high regard. Those people might think that questioning the scriptures in the way you did is rude, foolish, or heretical.
First of all, whenever someone uses an obscure latin phrase for no good reason, it doesn't make you look smarter, it just makes you more annoying and pretentious.

The bolded part above does not automatically follow.
and the credulity of those who believe them and hold them in high regard.
But I agree that it can be easily taken that way, and that's why I made sure to qualify and explain my designation of BS to make it crystal clear I was referring to the scripture.

And that's why when you called my direct experience BS, and my mom's direct experience as BS, without qualification, and an ambiguous emoji as a cherry on top, it WAS interpreted as insulting.
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by Sam Vara »

frank k wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:04 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 1:06 pm ...
Mutatis mutandis, the same applies, doesn't it. If calling something BS is to question integrity and credibility, then your post questions the integrity of the relevant scriptures, and the credulity of those who believe them and hold them in high regard. Those people might think that questioning the scriptures in the way you did is rude, foolish, or heretical.
First of all, whenever someone uses an obscure latin phrase for no good reason, it doesn't make you look smarter, it just makes you more annoying and pretentious.

The bolded part above does not automatically follow.
and the credulity of those who believe them and hold them in high regard.
But I agree that it can be easily taken that way, and that's why I made sure to qualify and explain my designation of BS to make it crystal clear I was referring to the scripture.

And that's why when you called my direct experience BS, and my mom's direct experience as BS, without qualification, and an ambiguous emoji as a cherry on top, it WAS interpreted as insulting.
So you've interpreted some stuff as being insulting, annoying, and pretentious. Thanks for sharing, Frank!

Now,

:focus:
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

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frank k wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:07 am Does anyone seriously believe ...
Good householder. Many of those well founded do not only serious believe but see constantly that good householders way of speech and certain fixations do nothing good for him as well as others. They are also sure, don't just believe, that one serious in Jhana would't use words and speech of the backyards in townships, unless total uneducated.

That's what would be meant but Sangaha-vatthu in regard of highest benevolence, equal ones "stand".

Metta, of a disciple of the Noble Ones, protects like that. Yet it's a different of someone believing to practice the Brahma-Viharas of the Noble Ones, yet still struggle with basic right view, not to speak of path right view.
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

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frank k wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:55 am Sacci Kiryiya powers also sounds like * .
If it actually worked that way, wouldn't you think arahants during the Buddha's time would have invoked that power to do things like, "If the Dhamma is genuine and efficacious, may true Dhamma never die and become infected with corrupted forms of Buddhism with superstitions, wrong views and corruption for the entire world aeon?"
So it's not the case that actually the true Dhamma can no more get lost for Noble disciples, good householder?
And, out of compassion, they usually would cite such similar protections, yet can only work for those having made their proper conditions for such, eg. basic right view.

Nowhere is it told that those powers could protect others then the doer. Something good householder should be very aware, as even near of those, as long as not gained real Refuge, there is less to hope as protective aside their well meant advices.
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

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frank k wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:07 am Does anyone seriously believe angulimala had power to prevent bad pregnancy with sacci kiryaya?
Yes. Millions of pregnant Sri Lankan women, past and present, many of them with college degrees in STEM subjects, chartered accounting and other disciplines that entail both intelligence and having one's feet planted firmly on the ground.
frank k wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:07 amOr that by simply reciting 7 words from 7 awakening factors can instantly cure fatal illness?
I've not heard of any campaign to get the Bojjhanga Paritta or the three Gilānasuttas expurgated from any of the standard paritta chanting cycles, so I guess a lot of Buddhists must be serious about these too.
frank k wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:07 amThen why even have vinaya rules regulating medicine, or have a need for medicine at all? Any ailment, any problem, just chant 7 words from bojjhanga and make a sacci kiriyaya.
As I stated in my last post, saccakiriyās and parittas are not claimed to be of unlimited power. The Milindapañha even states that their power to heal or whatever will in some cases be overridden by obstructive kamma on the part of the listener.
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

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A desperate prayer does not equate to belief in the efficacy of that desperate prayer.
One time I was on an airplane going through extreme turbulence. I thought it was going crash, I was scared for my life.
I started chanting 'amitofo', and praying for help from kuan yin bodhisattva.
That was a desperate prayer, a reflexive reaction from my experimentation in mahayana practices in my youth.
But it doesn't mean I believe there is a pure land with a buddha named amitabha where beings can reborn and stay until they become buddhas.
It doesn't mean I believe there is a single being named kuan yin with ten thousand arms and all that stuff.
As I stated in my last post, saccakiriyās and parittas are not claimed to be of unlimited power. The Milindapañha even states that their power to heal or whatever will in some cases be overridden by obstructive kamma on the part of the listener.
Well that's convenient isn't it? If it happens to work, then it's the wondrous power of sacchi kiriya.
If it doesn't work, then it's because of the obstructive karma of the invoker.

The problem when Buddhists don't take a stand protecting the genuine dhamma from the superstitious forgeries smuggled into it, then everything looks dubious, and it's easy to dismiss everything out of the ordinary, rebirth, karma, devas, as skeptical western buddhists like to do.

Mumfie wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:28 pm
frank k wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:07 am Does anyone seriously believe angulimala had power to prevent bad pregnancy with sacci kiryaya?
Yes. Millions of pregnant Sri Lankan women, past and present, many of them with college degrees in STEM subjects, chartered accounting and other disciplines that entail both intelligence and having one's feet planted firmly on the ground.
frank k wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:07 amOr that by simply reciting 7 words from 7 awakening factors can instantly cure fatal illness?
I've not heard of any campaign to get the Bojjhanga Paritta or the three Gilānasuttas expurgated from any of the standard paritta chanting cycles, so I guess a lot of Buddhists must be serious about these too.
frank k wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:07 amThen why even have vinaya rules regulating medicine, or have a need for medicine at all? Any ailment, any problem, just chant 7 words from bojjhanga and make a sacci kiriyaya.
As I stated in my last post, saccakiriyās and parittas are not claimed to be of unlimited power. The Milindapañha even states that their power to heal or whatever will in some cases be overridden by obstructive kamma on the part of the listener.
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Re: How did uttara stop the hot water from burning her?

Post by Mumfie »

frank k wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:22 pm A desperate prayer does not equate to belief in the efficacy of that desperate prayer.
I didn't say anything about desperate prayers.

I was referring to what Sinhalese women will typically do upon learning that they have conceived a child. For them, visiting a monk and asking him to recite the Angulimāla Paritta is as routine a part of pregnancy as taking ante-natal vitamins or going to birthing classes.
frank k wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:22 pmWell that's convenient isn't it? If it happens to work, then it's the wondrous power of sacchi kiriya.
If it doesn't work, then it's because of the obstructive karma of the invoker.
Yes, the claimed efficacy of parittas is unfalsifiable, much as one would expect of a claim that's religious rather than scientific. The whole of mundane right view, for example, consists of a series of unfalsifiable claims.
frank k wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 3:22 pmThe problem when Buddhists don't take a stand protecting the genuine dhamma from the superstitious forgeries smuggled into it, then everything looks dubious, and it's easy to dismiss everything out of the ordinary, rebirth, karma, devas, as skeptical western buddhists like to do.
Let us hope that the merit of your tireless heresiological pugilism will carry you to the farther shore!
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