How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Did I understand correctly?

And further.
What do you think, dear participants?
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Goofaholix
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Goofaholix »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:52 pm That is, the "conditional individual" is the five aggregates. He himself is physical and mental conditions and the process of change, and at the same time can influence it, albeit partially. And also follow. That is, when we consciously make a decision, we are thoughts and decision-making, as well as the process of thinking. It is an impersonal but not automatic process. It does not happen by itself, you need "awareness", "participation", "make efforts". And all this, too, without "self".
This is a pretty good summary, if you practice and reflect on it over time your understanding will evolve.
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:52 pm At the first stages, you should not delve deeply into ideas and try to understand "how it really is." You can start practicing with your own understanding.

Please tell me how to continue the practice then? To read or not to read?
It's not a good idea to try and work it all out beforehand by reading. Much of the teaching is counter-intuitive and goes against the grain and a lifetime of habit. Once you have a working knowledge practice with that reflecting on what you experience. When you notice what you habitually identify as your "self" reflect, is it permanent? does it provide satisfaction? is it really self?
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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cappuccino
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by cappuccino »

Goofaholix wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:38 pm is it permanent?
Inconstancy
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Goofaholix
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Goofaholix »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:18 pm Inconstancy
I wish
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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cappuccino
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by cappuccino »

Goofaholix wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:41 pm
cappuccino wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:18 pm Inconstancy
I wish
Inconstancy leads to the goal


Be careful what you wish for
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Goofaholix
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Goofaholix »

cappuccino wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:44 pm Inconstancy leads to the goal


Be careful what you wish for
Constancy leads to posts being ignored.

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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retrofuturist
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Time to get...

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Thank you.
Ok, it goes like this:
a "conditional individual" can make decisions, create, solve problems, make plans, think, remember, etc. All these processes are not denied by Buddhism, but they are not discussed in the teachings, either. they are not related to enlightenment.
Is this also confirmed? There is experience.
pegembara
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by pegembara »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 8:52 pm
At the first stages, you should not delve deeply into ideas and try to understand "how it really is." You can start practicing with your own understanding. If there is "self", then this is normal.
Please tell me how to continue the practice then? To read or not to read?
And it is desirable in practice to constantly consult with the sangha whether the understanding of the teaching is correct.
One of the most useful practices IMO is to learn to watch your thoughts. You will realize how they come to be. You learn not to always believe them and hopefully, it will become absolutely clear that they are not you or yours but a result of causes and conditions. The "you" is merely a thought.

For starters, "Do you know what your next thought will be?"
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Goofaholix
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Goofaholix »

pegembara wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 12:17 am For starters, "Do you know what your next thought will be?"
After reading that it's pretty much guaranteed to be something along the lines of "I wonder what my next thought will be..."

Causes and Conditions.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Thank you!
And one more question.
"Walpola Rahula Thero "What the buddha taught"
"Man consists of six elements: hardness, fluidity, heat, movement, space and consciousness. When considering them, he finds that none of them is "mine", "me" or "my self". He understands how consciousness, as pleasant, unpleasant and indifferent sensations arise and disappear. Through this knowledge, his mind becomes detached. Then he finds in himself a pure steadfastness (upekha), which he can direct to achieve any high spiritual state, and knows that this pure steadfastness will last a long time, but then he thinks:
If I focus this pure steadfastness on the Realm of Infinite Space and develop a mind consonant with it, then this will be mental creation (samkhatam)*6. If I focus this Pure Resoluteness on the Realm of Infinite Consciousness... on the Realm of Nothing... or on the Realm of neither Perception nor Non-Perception, and develop a mind consonant with it, then it will be mental creation." Then he neither creates mentally nor desires of permanence and becoming (bhava) or annihilation (vibhava)*7, he does not cling to anything in the world, there is no agitation in him, because he has no agitation, he is completely calm in himself (completely extinguished within pachchattan yeva parinibbayati) And he knows: "Birth is completed, a pure life has been lived, what has to be done has been done, nothing remains undone."
Now, while experiencing pleasant, unpleasant or indifferent sensations, he knows that it is impermanent, that it does not bind him, that it is not experienced with passion. Whatever the feeling, he experiences it without attachment to it (visamyutto). He knows that all these sensations will subside with the disintegration of the body, just as a flame disappears when oil and wick run out."


It is clear that the arahant is no longer stressed, because there is no need to worry about his "I".
Nevertheless, after enlightenment, an arahant takes care of his body, does not forget about food. That is, he retains conscious activity, mental activity, controls his actions?
For example, he takes care, tries not to cut himself, not burn himself, not get sick, not harm the body when performing actions. Avoids dangerous places.
He also helps others, leads sermons.
Yes?
Or does he stop thinking at all, decide nothing and just go where the cause-and-effect relationship is driving? Is this what enlightenment is?
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Fri Aug 12, 2022 6:14 pm, edited 7 times in total.
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

For example, he takes care, tries not to cut himself, not burn himself, not get sick, not harm the body when performing actions. Avoids dangerous places.
He also helps others, leads sermons.
Yes?
Or does he stop thinking at all, decide nothing and just go where the cause-and-effect relationship is driving? Is this what enlightenment is?
Apparently the question is incorrect, sorry. I'll try to reformulate it later.
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

robertk wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:42 am
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:13 pm
robertk wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 8:04 pm
What exactly is the you?
Right. What am I?
You already have some reading in Abhidhamma, and you know that the Buddha's teaching says that all elements are not self, so this won't be too new.
In Dhamma the you, the I are convenient referents, shorthand terms, designations for what is really exists. And what exists are only momentary combinations of mentatilty and materiality. However because of the continuity of the arising and ceasing there is the illusion of things remaining.

How this relates to your questions is rather important as even effort is completely momentary and their is no self who can decide to have right effort (or wrong effort for that matter). Every moment is conditioned by various conditions- which themselves are conditioned.
And it this understanding that leads to weakening the idea of self.
I thought about your words, but something is completely confused.
Yes, the Abhidhamma states that everything is composite and instantaneous.
But I didn't see how decisions are made.
That is, if everything appears in connection with cause and effect, then I don’t have to do anything, take the initiative, decide? How do we choose? Efforts will appear by itself, automatically? And the eightfold path is realized by itself? Should I just watch and wait?
Explain to me please how it works?

How then to be with the following concepts?
K. Sri Dhammananda, "What Buddhists Believe"
"...Do it yourself
Self-dependence plays an important role in all aspects of our life. Knowing that no external forces, no faith and no rituals can us save, the Buddhist understands the need to rely on one's own efforts. By relying on ourselves, we develop confidence. We are aware that all themselves. Responsibility for both the present life and the future rests entirely with us. Everyone must strive for salvation on their own. One must follow the rules, directions or advice of the Buddha (who gives emancipation orders) by controlling or suppressing greed, hatred and ignorance. Buddhism is not a religion in which people can to obtain salvation by mere prayers or petitions. For achievement perfection, they should strive hard by controlling the mind to eradicate their selfish desires and feelings. According to the Buddha, people are the creators of their own destiny. They have no one to blame for her, because they alone are responsible for their own lives. They create their own life
doing good or harm to oneself. "
N.K.G. Mendis. "Free will. One might say, "If all phenomena arise conditionally, then Buddhism is a form of fatalism, since we do not have the free will to control our destiny." Such a statement would be incorrect. Will is a cetana, a state of mind ethically determined by its root condition. If the root is unwholesome, we can either restrain the will or indulge it; if the root is good, we can encourage it or neglect it. In this manifestation of the will lies our freedom to control our own destiny".
Goofaholix
"We can influence the process, the teaching of the Buddha would be pointless if that were not the case.
Causes and conditions lead to what we experience but we have a degree of choice in how we react, and we can create conditions for better choices in future.
Causes and conditions dictate which cards you are dealt but you can choose how to play your hand, and learn to play our hand better in future."
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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robertk
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by robertk »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:43 pm


I thought about your words, but something is completely confused.
Yes, the Abhidhamma states that everything is composite and instantaneous.
But I didn't see how decisions are made.
That is, if everything appears in connection with cause and effect, then I don’t have to do anything, take the initiative, decide? How do we choose? Efforts will appear by itself, automatically? And the eightfold path is realized by itself? Should I just watch and wait?
Explain to me please how it works?

How then to be with the following concepts?
K. Sri Dhammananda, "What Buddhists Believe"
"...Do it yourself
Self-dependence plays an important role in all aspects of our life. Knowing that no external forces, no faith and no rituals can us save, the Buddhist understands the need to rely on one's own efforts. By relying on ourselves, we develop confidence. We are aware that all themselves. "
N.K.G. Mendis. "Free will. One might say, "If all phenomena arise conditionally, then Buddhism is a form of fatalism, since we do not have the free will to control our destiny." Such a statement would be incorrect. Will is a cetana, a state of mind ethically determined by its root condition. If the root is unwholesome, we can either restrain the will or indulge it; if the root is good, we can encourage it or neglect it. In this manifestation of the will lies our freedom to control our own destiny".
Goofaholix
"We can influence the process, the teaching of the Buddha would be pointless if that were not the case.
Causes and conditions lead to what we experience but we have a degree of choice in how we react, and we can create conditions for better choices in future.
Causes and conditions dictate which cards you are dealt but you can choose how to play your hand, and learn to play our hand better in future."
All these quotes are not helpful for penetrating the crucial finding of the Buddha; namely that there is absolutely no self. If the understanding of anatta is not developing then I would say one missing the main issue.
Sammohavinodanii
"The characteristics of impermanence and pain are made known with or without the arising of the Tathaagatas. The characteristic of no-self is not made known without the arising of the Enlightened Ones; it is made known only on the arising of the Enlightened Ones. For such wanderers and ascetics (taapasa) as the master Sarabha.nga are mighty and powerful and are able to express ‘the impermanent and the painful’: [but] they are unable to express ‘no-self’. For if they were able to express ‘no-self’ in a present assembly, there would be penetration of path and fruition in the present assembly. For the making known of the characteristic of no-self is not the province of anyone else; it is the province of the Fully Enlightened Ones only. Thus the characteristic of no-self is unobvious
Buddhists who obscure the teaching of anatta are doing a diservice to the Sasana IMHO. It should be highlighted and stressed to anyone capable of understanding it.

"
The characteristic of no-self is unobvious, dark, unclear, difficult to penetrate, difficult *
to illustrate, difficult to make known. The characteristics of **impermanence and dukkha are made known with or without the arising of *
the Tathagathas. The characteristic of no-self is …only made known *
on the arising of the enlightened ones" Sammohavinodani p59 *
***(Dispeller of delusion, Pali text society, commentary to the ***
***Vibhanga). ***
For right effort and anatta this is a helpful thread:
https://classicaltheravada.org/t/right- ... anatta/220
Konstantin Sol
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

I do not understand.
How to start practicing the path if everything is conditioned? Will it show up on its own?
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