Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SteRo
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by SteRo »

Gami47 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:22 pm:namaste:
According to buddhist doctrine: no. According to christian doctrine: yes.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

auto wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 4:18 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 10:52 pm They can sometimes occur in an uncontrolled and chaotic manner with psychedelics
When you are talking about subtle body and defending it that its real you mean the power you can tap into either by meditation or psychedelics like you talked in the qigong thread?
I don't need psychedelics to tap into the subtle body. I can do it anytime by becoming aware of the breath and the breath-energy body that pervades and is my entire bodily experience.
This is the Ajahn Lee/Thannissaro method.
I feel this is what was originally meant by the term 'subtle body' but I don't need such terminology either.
Psychedelics can enhance the process of meditation practice for some but could also be a hindrance so my position here has always been to neither condone nor admonish their use.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
auto
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by auto »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:45 am I can do it anytime by becoming aware of the breath and the breath-energy body that pervades and is my entire bodily experience.
is the breath-body concentrated in someplace or just general feel?
can you move it?
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

auto wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:08 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 7:45 am I can do it anytime by becoming aware of the breath and the breath-energy body that pervades and is my entire bodily experience.
is the breath-body concentrated in someplace or just general feel?
can you move it?
Yes it can be moved and adjusted with practice.

The breath-energy body refers to simply your ordinary day to day experience of having a body. If you close your eyes you still feel that you have a body - this is what we are talking about, a sense of energy or sensation that pervades the physical body to let you know it is there.

Why it can also be called the 'breath-energy body' is that most people don't realize that this sense or experience of having a body is also connecting to the breathing process. Once one 'tunes in' to the fact that the in and out physical breathing is indeed connected to the sensation of the bodily experience, one can play with this and increase or spread the sensation throughout the body and more in some parts than others etc using the breath.

It responds to attention.

The aim of Jhana as I understand it with the Ajahn Lee sutta based system, is to fill the entire body especially areas usually neglected and connect each area with the breath energy body and let the jhana factors arise doing this.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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confusedlayman
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by confusedlayman »

Why when absorbed in piti feels uplifting and floating like about to exit the body like leaviating with "feelimg body" ?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
auto
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by auto »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 2:45 pm .
Thanks for explaining, i think that's not what is in alchemy or you are just really good at concealing.
The internal breath(vapor) in alchemy traditions are not easy to get, we speaking years of development with long periods of dormancy in between.
The way you get it, is from sense of work, practicing so long till there arises the feel of that you are working and then cultivate that, also you got to overcome weakness.
Then there are urges, also where urge arises as a phenomena(tangible substance-like) what you can embody, once it is embodied it can enter cavities in the body, i don't know really there too much stuff.
first stages are not even about vapor, mind is dry and blank, thus the internal breath is not something you can simply find a way to tune into and then you have it.
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

auto wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:35 pm thus the internal breath is not something you can simply find a way to tune into and then you have it.
I am speaking only about Ajahn Lee's method as explained in his book 'Keeping the breath in Mind'. The internal breath you can tune into once you find it since it is connected to the ordinary experience of the body, just most people don't realise it's connected to the breathing. Once you have this you can work with it. However it takes time to develop to the jhanic levels. Thanissaro also speaks of the breath energy in the bones, in the internal organs, and even extending to about 2 inches outside the body so clearly it's something related to the breathing and the body sensation experience yet also going beyond it.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
auto
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by auto »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 4:50 pm
auto wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:35 pm thus the internal breath is not something you can simply find a way to tune into and then you have it.
I am speaking only about Ajahn Lee's method as explained in his book 'Keeping the breath in Mind'. The internal breath you can tune into once you find it since it is connected to the ordinary experience of the body, just most people don't realise it's connected to the breathing. Once you have this you can work with it. However it takes time to develop to the jhanic levels. Thanissaro also speaks of the breath energy in the bones, in the internal organs, and even extending to about 2 inches outside the body so clearly it's something related to the breathing and the body sensation experience yet also going beyond it.
Its not the internal breath what i mean. Why that even matters is whether you want superpowers and immortality or not. Also the alchemy covers everything, so there might be an instance where what you describe is used.
Mindfulness practice approaches where teachers tell how it is done, obviously it is covered in alchemy tradition too using little bit different terminology.
Thus what you describe is false thing regardless of tradition. I think you misinterpret Ajahn's.
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

auto wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 5:21 pm
Its not the internal breath what i mean. Why that even matters is whether you want superpowers and immortality or not. Also the alchemy covers everything, so there might be an instance where what you describe is used.
Mindfulness practice approaches where teachers tell how it is done, obviously it is covered in alchemy tradition too using little bit different terminology.
Thus what you describe is false thing regardless of tradition. I think you misinterpret Ajahn's.
I have no idea what you mean talking about alchemy, and English also is clearly not your first language so perhaps you cannot explain well.

However I can assure you the breath-energy body is very real I work with it and experience it every day, and I also do not misrepresent the teachings of Ajahn Lee and Thanissaro Bhikkhu. I don't claim to be an expert however the explanations I give are correct and consistent with how they teach the practice.

In fact everyone experiences the energy body since it's the default way the body is experienced, it's just that most don't connect it to the breathing and thus don't develop the breath-energy body where it becomes sensitive to the in-out breath and can develop into a full body jhana.

It's true that Ajahn Lee was famous for his mastery of supernormal powers which may be related to his practice but it's not something I can comment on.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
auto
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by auto »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:01 pm I have no idea what you mean talking about alchemy,
an excerpt about alchemy,
to wrote:original cavity of spirit should be concentrated on whether the practiser walks, stand, sits or reclines. And all of a sudden the heart becomes pure and the spirits high causing vitality to be overwhelming and the body robust. In this utter stillness devoid of thoughts and feelings the practiser will awaken fully to the void that is not empty and to his(essential) nature. When this stage is reached his vitality develops further, his knowledge increases and his spiritual disposition becomes all-pervading.
Unexpectedly a spark of real positive(principle) appears revealing the mysterious gate(hsuan kuan).
Hence my master Ch'iao Ch'iao said: 'The mysterious gate has no fixed position; its path is the central passage which passes through the huang ting center(solar plexus).

The patriarch Liu said: ' If the original cavity of spirit(between and behind the eyes) is constantly held on to(i.e concentrated upon) vital force will develop of itself and will beget true vitality which will be linked with(essential)life in the lower tan t'ien center(under the navel) to produce the golden elixir(chin tan).' The patriarch feared that students might not know the correct method when vitality manifests and so might let it drain away by the genital duct(yang kuan) to create offspring. When the generative force is half-way down the duct, if the practiser has received correct instruction from a competent master, he will be able to turn it back and use it to prepare the elixir of immortality.
Thus we know that the generative force tends to flow away.

My elder brother Chao Kuei I said:' When the generative force is about to flow out, if the mortal gate(sheng szu ch'iao at the root of the penis) is not blocked(by a finger pressed on it) it will leave by that gate, turn liquid and become the generative fluid which will be discharged. This generative force will become semen if it flows out in the worldly way, but will change into vitality if it is turned back(and sublimated in the microcosmic orbit).'
if to compare it with kalachakra then its the 1st yoga.(i believe)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalachakra wrote: The Yoga of Retraction (pratyāhara, so sor sdud pa). This practice involves bringing the vital winds (pranas) into the central channel where they are dissolved. This is done by focusing the mind on the aperture of the central channel in the top of the forehead with eyes open and an upward gaze (the "gaze of Ushnishacakri"). When the vital winds cease to flow in the side channels, the connection between the five sense faculties and their objects is severed and craving for material things diminishes. When this happens, extraordinary signs which are also called empty forms arise (the sign of smoke, a mirage, fire-flies, a lamp, a flame, the moon, the sun, the supreme form, and a drop/bindu) and become more vivid the more stabilized the mind becomes. The first four signs appear when practicing at night or in a dark enclosed space and the others appear while practicing in the daytime and while meditating on open space. A drop/bindu with a Buddha at the center will appear as the tenth sign.
auto
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Re: Can someone have supernatural powers without perfect concentration?

Post by auto »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 9:01 pm However I can assure you the breath-energy body is very real I work with it and experience it every day, and I also do not misrepresent the teachings of Ajahn Lee and Thanissaro Bhikkhu. I don't claim to be an expert however the explanations I give are correct and consistent with how they teach the practice.

In fact everyone experiences the energy body since it's the default way the body is experienced, it's just that most don't connect it to the breathing and thus don't develop the breath-energy body where it becomes sensitive to the in-out breath and can develop into a full body jhana.
I think what you describe above is:
consciousness has body-sensitivity as its physical basis.
visuddhimagga pdf 80 wrote:53. (b) Now, as regards the virtue of restraint of faculties shown next to that in the
way beginning, “on seeing a visible object with the eye,” herein he is a bhikkhu
established in the virtue of Pátimokkha restraint. On seeing a visible object with the eye:
on seeing a visible object with the eye-consciousness that is capable of seeing visible
objects and has borrowed the name “eye” from its instrument.

But the Ancients (poráóá)
said: “The eye does not see a visible object because it has no mind. The mind does not
see because it has no eyes. But when there is the impingement of door and object he
sees by means of the consciousness that has eye-sensitivity as its physical basis. Now,
(an idiom) such as this is called an ‘accessory locution’ (sasambhárakathá), like ‘He shot
him with his bow,’ and so on. So the meaning here is this: ‘On seeing a visible object
with eye-consciousness.’”14
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