Keren Arbel's Jhāna

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Ceisiwr
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Keren Arbel's Jhāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

On page 52 of Keren Arbel's "Early Buddhist Meditation: The Jhānas as the Actualisation of Insight " she writes the following:

"Further, a statement that one is cut off from "the five strings of sensual desires (pañca-kāma-guṇā) - namely , forms, sounds, odours, flavour and tangibles - would clearly point to the cutting off of sensory experience whilst in the Jhāna"

Unfortunately for Keren's theory, the suttas do say this. For example
“Reverend, these five kinds of sensual stimulation are called ‘confinement’ by the Buddha. What five? Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. Sounds known by the ear … Smells known by the nose … Tastes known by the tongue … Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. These are the five kinds of sensual stimulation that are called ‘confinement’ by the Buddha.

Now, take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures … enters and remains in the first absorption. To this extent the Buddha spoke of creating an opening amid confinement in a qualified sense. But it is still confined. Confined by what? Whatever placing of the mind and keeping it connected has not ceased is the confinement there.

Furthermore, take a mendicant who, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled … enters and remains in the second absorption. To this extent the Buddha spoke of creating an opening amid confinement in a qualified sense. But it is still confined. Confined by what? Whatever rapture has not ceased is the confinement there."
https://suttacentral.net/an9.42/en/suja ... ript=latin

According to Keren's argument then, based on the Pāli suttas the 5 sense consciousnesses do not occur whilst in Jhāna.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Keren Arbel's Jhāna

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A further argument
And what is material rapture? There are these five kinds of sensual stimulation. What five? Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. Sounds … Smells … Tastes … Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. These are the five kinds of sensual stimulation. The rapture that arises from these five kinds of sensual stimulation is called material rapture.

And what is spiritual rapture? It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, they enter and remain in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. This is called spiritual rapture...

And what is material pleasure? Mendicants, there are these five kinds of sensual stimulation. What five? Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. Sounds … Smells … Tastes … Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. These are the five kinds of sensual stimulation. The pleasure and happiness that arise from these five kinds of sensual stimulation is called material pleasure...

And what is spiritual pleasure? It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected. As the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, they enter and remain in the second absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, with internal clarity and confidence, and unified mind, without placing the mind and keeping it connected. And with the fading away of rapture, they enter and remain in the third absorption, where they meditate with equanimity, mindful and aware, personally experiencing the bliss of which the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’ This is called spiritual pleasure...

And what is material equanimity? There are these five kinds of sensual stimulation. What five? Sights known by the eye that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. Sounds … Smells … Tastes … Touches known by the body that are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing. These are the five kinds of sensual stimulation. The equanimity that arises from these five kinds of sensual stimulation is called material equanimity.

And what is spiritual equanimity? It’s when, giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, a mendicant enters and remains in the fourth absorption, without pleasure or pain, with pure equanimity and mindfulness. This is called spiritual equanimity.
From this we can see the following

Material Rapture: Arises dependent upon pleasing sights, sounds, touches etc.
Spiritual Rapture: Arises apart from pleasing sights, sounds, touches etc.

Material Pleasure: Arises dependent upon pleasing sights, sounds, touches etc.
Spiritual Pleasure: Arises apart from pleasing sights, sounds, touches etc.

Material Equanimity: Arises dependent upon pleasing sights, sounds, touches etc.
Spiritual Pleasure: Arises apart from pleasing sights, sounds, touches etc.

Material rapture, pleasure or equanimity therefore arises with pleasing sights, sounds etc as a basis. When contacted by pleasing sights etc there will be worldly rapture, pleasure or equanimity. For spiritual rapture, pleasure and equanimity it follows that they arise when there is no contact with pleasing sights etc. When one is no longer experiencing pleasing sights, sounds etc then one is secluded, leading to a rapture and happiness (and equanimity) born of seclusion. The Jhāna are states fully secluded from pleasing sights, sounds etc and so, based on her own argument, Keren Arbel should accept that one does not experiences the 5 senses whilst in any Jhāna.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Keren Arbel's Jhāna

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To me, "secluded from sensual pleasures" means secluded from lustful intention. It means desire for the objects of sensual pleasures has been disengaged. It's not necessary seclusion from sights, sounds, etc. like when wearing plugs in the ears or something. Of course you retire to an isolated place but it doesn't matter if there is a soothing sound of a nearby stream or not. The point is to have cut off desire for any sight, sound, odour, taste, and body sensation, whether present or not.
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Re: Keren Arbel's Jhāna

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Keren Arbel also argues the following
Kama is an important term in the Buddha’s teaching, and it is quite different than the object of the senses. The Buddha states quite clearly that:

“The thought of desire in a person is kama,
not the wonderful sense pleasures [found] in the world.
The thought of desire in a person is kama.
The wonderful [things] remain as they are in the world,
while the wise men remove the impulse [for them].”[ AN III.411]

In other words, when one enters into the first jhana, one is not cut off from sense experience but from unwholesome reactions to experience. Experiencing phenomena without unwholesome reactions such as desire, aversion etc., allows the mind to find delight mot in sense pleasures, but from letting go of the unwholesome; this is the joy of letting go, the joy of clarity. (Arbel, p.51-2, 58-60
According to Keren when one is in Jhāna one can still experience pain, but the suttas clearly state that when someone is in Jhāna they do not experience any pain. Even with non-absorbed views of Jhāna, the meditator does not experience pain since the body if filled with pleasant contacts (with ?).
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Keren Arbel's Jhāna

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mjaviem wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:08 pm To me, "secluded from sensual pleasures" means secluded from lustful intention. It means desire for the objects of sensual pleasures has been disengaged. It's not necessary seclusion from sights, sounds, etc. like when wearing plugs in the ears or something. Of course you retire to an isolated place but it doesn't matter if there is a soothing sound of a nearby stream or not. The point is to have cut off desire for any sight, sound, odour, taste, and body sensation, whether present or not.
Lustful intention, sense desire (the first hindrance), would be included under seclusion from unwholesome states (the hindrances). That is mental seclusion. Seclusion from sensual pleasures, as objects of desire, would be seclusion from the kāmā and so would be full bodily (kāya) seclusion.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Keren Arbel's Jhāna

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Ceisiwr wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:30 pm Lustful intention, sense desire (the first hindrance), would be included under seclusion from unwholesome states (the hindrances). That is mental seclusion. Seclusion from sensual pleasures, as objects of desire, would be seclusion from the kāmā and so would be full bodily (kāya) seclusion.
I think retirement of the body to an isolated place and seclusion from the objects of desire would be the "paṭisallānā" we find in the formula "emerges from seclusion (paṭisallānā vuṭṭhito)".

But in the case of "seclusion from sensual pleasures" and "seclusion from unwholesome states" we are here talking about "viveka" in the sense of detachment. "Vivicceva kāmehi" would be the sensual pleasures detachment. Meaning cutting off the senses desire in my understanding. And "vivicca akusalehi dhammehi" would be the unwholesome states detachment. Meaning cutting off with the unwholesome. Viveka better than seclusion it goes in the sense of detachment. We can see that the formula using viveka goes "vivekanissitaṁ virāganissitaṁ nirodhanissitaṁ" which would be "supported by detachment, dispassion, and cessation". Translations saying "supported by seclusion, dispassion, and cessation" are a little confusing in my opinion, they tend to make us think only in bodily isolation and not in cutting off with desire for the objects of sensual pleasures as well. And all this means jhana can be achieved anywhere in the world even when there's no cave, empty hut or root of a tree at hand. It seems one needs to be detached which goes farther than merely isolation.
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Re: Keren Arbel's Jhāna

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mjaviem wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:46 am
I think retirement of the body to an isolated place and seclusion from the objects of desire would be the "paṭisallānā" we find in the formula "emerges from seclusion (paṭisallānā vuṭṭhito)".

But in the case of "seclusion from sensual pleasures" and "seclusion from unwholesome states" we are here talking about "viveka" in the sense of detachment. "Vivicceva kāmehi" would be the sensual pleasures detachment. Meaning cutting off the senses desire in my understanding. And "vivicca akusalehi dhammehi" would be the unwholesome states detachment. Meaning cutting off with the unwholesome. Viveka better than seclusion it goes in the sense of detachment. We can see that the formula using viveka goes "vivekanissitaṁ virāganissitaṁ nirodhanissitaṁ" which would be "supported by detachment, dispassion, and cessation". Translations saying "supported by seclusion, dispassion, and cessation" are a little confusing in my opinion, they tend to make us think only in bodily isolation and not in cutting off with desire for the objects of sensual pleasures as well. And all this means jhana can be achieved anywhere in the world even when there's no cave, empty hut or root of a tree at hand. It seems one needs to be detached which goes farther than merely isolation.
The phrase "paṭisallānā vuṭṭhito" means coming out of a period of secluded practice. For example, when I come home from retreat this would be paṭisallānā vuṭṭhito. In comparison viviccati means something else. Viviccati means to be separate from, to be away from. The verb form (vivicca) means separating oneself. Eva is also important. It acts as an intensifier. So, when we read "vivicceva kāmehi" what it means is "absolutely separating/away from the kāmehi". Now kāmehi is the plural of kāma. Kāma, singular, is sensual desire. It is the desire for things, and is purely mental in nature. This falls under "unwholesome states", which means the hindrances. What "vivicceva kāmehi" means then are the objects of this desire. Pleasing sounds, tastes, smells, sights and physical contacts. So, when we read the standard pericope for Jhāna we have the following

"Vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi"
"Absolutely separating/away from pleasurable external objects and separating/away from sensual desire and the other hindrances"

The "vivicceva kāmehi" then is the bodily seclusion (kāyaviveka) whilst the "vivicca akusalehi dhammehi" is the mental seclusion (cittaviveka). Now I think we can all get an idea of what mental seclusion means. It means the hindrances do not arise in the mind, for those not fully awakened (the awakened are always without them), but what of bodily seclusion? Does it mean just sitting in a cave somewhere? I'm not so sure. Being absolutely away from pleasurable external objects suggests to me that contact with them does not occur at all, even by accident (a pleasant sound in a cave, for example). Just like how the hindrances are not there, so too the objects of desire are absolutely not there either. This of course then would mean that the 5 senses are not being experienced during the attainment. That said, I don't think you can enter Jhāna in any situation. I don't think you can enter it on a bus, or a train or next to a pneumatic drill. Sound, or noise, is said to be a thorn to Jhāna. This is why the Buddha disliked noise and those who made it, and why his sangha was known for preferring near total silence.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Keren Arbel's Jhāna

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Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:33 pm The phrase "paṭisallānā vuṭṭhito" means coming out of a period of secluded practice. For example, when I come home from retreat this would be paṭisallānā vuṭṭhito. In comparison viviccati means something else...
Exactly.
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:33 pm ... Viviccati means to be separate from, to be away from...
Exactly my point. A dettachment.
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:33 pm ... Kāma, singular, is sensual desire. It is the desire for things...
Yes
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:33 pm ... What "vivicceva kāmehi" means then are the objects of this desire...
To me it means "sensual desire–detachment". One kind of detachment. The one corresponding to the attachment due to sensual desire.
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:33 pm ...
"Vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi"
"... separating/away from sensual desire and the other hindrances"
...
There's no separation "from" sensual desire. There's sensual desire–separation.
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:33 pm ... The "vivicceva kāmehi" then is the bodily seclusion (kāyaviveka) whilst the "vivicca akusalehi dhammehi" is the mental seclusion (cittaviveka)...
I think the first one is the separation that comes from abandoning sensual desire, and not directly related to bodily solitude. The second one I think is the separation from any attachments that comes when abandoning unwholesome states (sensual desire included) which are wrong view, wrong, intention, wrong, speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong sati, and wrong samadhi.
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:33 pm ... the objects of desire are absolutely not there either... I don't think you can enter Jhāna in any situation... Sound, or noise, is said to be a thorn to Jhāna. This is why the Buddha disliked noise and those who made it, and why his sangha was known for preferring near total silence.
Ok, although I disagree.
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Re: Keren Arbel's Jhāna

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mjaviem wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:07 am
Exactly my point. A dettachment. To me it means "sensual desire–detachment". One kind of detachment. The one corresponding to the attachment due to sensual desire.

Well detachment gives the impression that they are still there, just one is no longer attached. I don't think it makes much sense to say that anger is there, it's just you are detached from it. Seclusion is better, since it means anger is not there. You are away from it. I also don't think vivicceva kāmehi means sensual desire, since sensual desire would be covered by akusalehi dhammehi, i.e. the hindrances. This brings me onto your next point
I think the first one is the separation that comes from abandoning sensual desire, and not directly related to bodily solitude. The second one I think is the separation from any attachments that comes when abandoning unwholesome states (sensual desire included) which are wrong view, wrong, intention, wrong, speech, wrong action, wrong livelihood, wrong effort, wrong sati, and wrong samadhi.
This sort of works to a point, since the opposite of Right Intention would include the hindrances. It falls down a bit since other ascetics also obtained Jhāna despite having wrong view. I've never known anyone, bar yourself, who translates the akusalehi dhammehi as the wrong path factors. The akusalehi dhammehi correspond with the hindrances of Satipaṭṭhāna. Their opposite are the awakening factors. Since we are talking about Jhāna, and since Satipaṭṭhāna is the means to enter them, it stands to reason that the akusalehi dhammehi here are the hindrances, which is how it has always been explained.
There's no separation "from" sensual desire. There's sensual desire–separation.
Sorry I don't understand the difference? That just says the same to me, just with different wording.
Ok, although I disagree.
Why do you think the Buddha disliked noise, and those that made it?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Keren Arbel's Jhāna

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Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:18 am Well detachment gives the impression that they are still there, just one is no longer attached. I don't think it makes much sense to say that anger is there, it's just you are detached from it. Seclusion is better, since it means anger is not there. You are away from it. I also don't think vivicceva kāmehi means sensual desire, since sensual desire would be covered by akusalehi dhammehi, i.e. the hindrances. This brings me onto your next point
...
Ok, good point if it leaves that impression. My point still holds that we are talking about isolation due to no sensual desire and not simply isolation from objects.
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:18 am ... I also don't think vivicceva kāmehi means sensual desire, since sensual desire would be covered by akusalehi dhammehi, i.e. the hindrances...
It's also covered there, yes, but still means that.
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:18 am This sort of works to a point, since the opposite of Right Intention would include the hindrances. It falls down a bit since other ascetics also obtained Jhāna despite having wrong view. I've never known anyone, bar yourself, who translates the akusalehi dhammehi as the wrong path factors...
;)
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:18 am
There's no separation "from" sensual desire. There's sensual desire–separation.
Sorry I don't understand the difference? That just says the same to me, just with different wording.
...
There's no you here and sensual desire there. There's only sensual desire and when there is sensual desire there is attachment which is not the same nor different to the aggregate subject to the attachment. When there is no sensual desire there is no more attachment but nothing is separated from anything.

You are convincing me that attachment is really a wrong translattion in many senses. Perhaps clinging and non-clinging. I don't know... So it's not about seclusion of the body specifically but about non-clinging by no desiring sensual objects.
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:18 am ...
Ok, although I disagree.
Why do you think the Buddha disliked noise, and those that made it?
The Buddha had no likes/dislikes (and I'm going to sleep now, not entering in this discussion, hehe)
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Re: Keren Arbel's Jhāna

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mjaviem wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:41 am
It's also covered there, yes, but still means that.
Based on what? Why would the Buddha repeat himself?
This sort of works to a point, since the opposite of Right Intention would include the hindrances. It falls down a bit since other ascetics also obtained Jhāna despite having wrong view. I've never known anyone, bar yourself, who translates the akusalehi dhammehi as the wrong path factors...
The hindrances are akusalehi dhammehi, no? If so, seclusion from the akusalehi dhammehi would include the hindrances.
There's no you here and sensual desire there. There's only sensual desire and when there is sensual desire there is attachment which is not the same nor different to the aggregate subject to the attachment. When there is no sensual desire there is no more attachment but nothing is separated from anything.
Your mind is what is separated from the hindrances, hence mental seclusion. Your mind is away from them, meaning you no longer are experiencing them. When they are present in your mind, there is no Jhāna.
You are convincing me that attachment is really a wrong translattion in many senses. Perhaps clinging and non-clinging. I don't know... So it's not about seclusion of the body specifically but about non-clinging by no desiring sensual objects.
What is bodily seclusion to you and how does it differ from mental seclusion?
The Buddha had no likes/dislikes (and I'm going to sleep now, not entering in this discussion, hehe)
Still persisting in that delusion I see. He certainly disliked his fame, and he very much disliked noise. He also didn't have anytime for those who made it, unless persuaded otherwise to make the time
Now, at that time Venerable Nāgita was the Buddha’s attendant. Then the Buddha said to Nāgita, “Nāgita, who’s making that dreadful racket? You’d think it was fishermen hauling in a catch!”

“Sir, it’s these brahmins and householders of Icchānaṅgala. They’ve brought many different foods, and they’re standing outside the gates wanting to offer it specially to the Buddha and the mendicant Saṅgha.”

“Nāgita, may I never become famous. May fame not come to me. There are those who can’t get the bliss of renunciation, the bliss of seclusion, the bliss of peace, the bliss of awakening when they want, without trouble or difficulty like I can. Let them enjoy the filthy, lazy pleasure of possessions, honor, and popularity.”

“Sir, may the Blessed One please relent now! May the Holy One relent! Now is the time for the Buddha to relent. Wherever the Buddha now goes, the brahmins and householders will incline the same way, as will the people of town and country. It’s like when it rains heavily and the water flows downhill. In the same way, wherever the Buddha now goes, the brahmins and householders will incline the same way, as will the people of town and country. Why is that? Because of the Buddha’s ethics and wisdom.”
https://suttacentral.net/an5.30/en/suja ... ript=latin
“Nāgita, may I never become famous. May fame not come to me. There are those who can’t get the bliss of renunciation, the bliss of seclusion, the bliss of peace, the bliss of awakening when they want, without trouble or difficulty like I can. Let them enjoy the filthy, lazy pleasure of possessions, honor, and popularity.”

“Sir, may the Blessed One please relent now! May the Holy One relent! Now is the time for the Buddha to relent. Wherever the Buddha now goes, the brahmins and householders will incline the same way, as will the people of town and country. It’s like when it rains heavily and the water flows downhill. In the same way, wherever the Buddha now goes, the brahmins and householders will incline the same way, as will the people of town and country. Why is that? Because of the Buddha’s ethics and wisdom.”

“Nāgita, may I never become famous. May fame not come to me. There are those who can’t get the bliss of renunciation, the bliss of seclusion, the bliss of peace, the bliss of awakening when they want, without trouble or difficulty like I can. Let them enjoy the filthy, lazy pleasure of possessions, honor, and popularity.

Take a mendicant living within a village who I see sitting immersed in samādhi. I think to myself: ‘Now a monastery worker, a novice, or a fellow practitioner will make this venerable fall from immersion.’ So I’m not pleased that that mendicant is living within a village.

Take a mendicant in the wilderness who I see sitting nodding in meditation. I think to myself: ‘Now this venerable, having dispelled that sleepiness and weariness, will focus just on the unified perception of wilderness.’ So I’m pleased that that mendicant is living in the wilderness.

Take a mendicant in the wilderness who I see sitting without being immersed in samādhi. I think to myself: ‘Now if this venerable’s mind is not immersed in samādhi they will immerse it, or if it is immersed in samādhi, they will preserve it.’ So I’m pleased that that mendicant is living in the wilderness.

Take a mendicant in the wilderness who I see sitting immersed in samādhi. I think to myself: ‘Now this venerable will free the unfreed mind or preserve the freed mind.’ So I’m pleased that that mendicant is living in the wilderness.

Take a mendicant who I see living within a village receiving robes, almsfood, lodgings, and medicines and supplies for the sick. Enjoying possessions, honor, and popularity they neglect retreat, and they neglect remote lodgings in the wilderness and the forest. They come down to villages, towns, and capital cities and make their home there. So I’m not pleased that that mendicant is living within a village.

Take a mendicant who I see in the wilderness receiving robes, almsfood, lodgings, and medicines and supplies for the sick. Fending off possessions, honor, and popularity they don’t neglect retreat, and they don’t neglect remote lodgings in the wilderness and the forest. So I’m pleased that that mendicant is living in the wilderness.

Nāgita, when I’m walking along a road and I don’t see anyone ahead or behind I feel relaxed, even if I need to urinate or defecate.”
https://suttacentral.net/an6.42/en/suja ... ript=latin
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Keren Arbel's Jhāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

Then the Buddha said to Venerable Ānanda, “Ānanda, who’s making that dreadful racket? You’d think it was fishermen hauling in a catch!”

And Ānanda told him what had happened.

“Well then, Ānanda, in my name tell those mendicants that the teacher summons them.”

“Yes, sir,” Ānanda replied. He went to those mendicants and said, “Venerables, the teacher summons you.”

“Yes, reverend,” replied those mendicants. Then they rose from their seats and went to the Buddha, bowed, and sat down to one side. The Buddha said to them:

“Mendicants, what’s with that dreadful racket? You’d think it was fishermen hauling in a catch!”

And they told him what had happened.

“Go away, mendicants, I dismiss you. You are not to stay in my presence.”

“Yes, sir,” replied those mendicants. They got up from their seats, bowed, and respectfully circled the Buddha, keeping him on their right. They set their lodgings in order and left, taking their bowls and robes.

Now at that time the Sakyans of Cātumā were sitting together at the meeting hall on some business. Seeing those mendicants coming off in the distance, they went up to them and said, “Hello venerables, where are you going?”

“Sirs, the mendicant Saṅgha has been dismissed by the Buddha.”

“Well then, venerables, sit here for a minute. Hopefully we’ll be able to restore the Buddha’s confidence.”

“Yes, sirs,” replied the mendicants.

Then the Sakyans of Cātumā went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him:

“May the Buddha approve of the mendicant Saṅgha! May the Buddha welcome the mendicant Saṅgha! May the Buddha support the mendicant Saṅgha now as he did in the past! There are mendicants here who are junior, recently gone forth, newly come to this teaching and training. If they don’t get to see the Buddha they may change and fall apart. If young seedlings don’t get water they may change and fall apart. In the same way, there are mendicants here who are junior, recently gone forth, newly come to this teaching and training. If they don’t get to see the Buddha they may change and fall apart. If a young calf doesn’t see its mother it may change and fall apart. In the same way, there are mendicants here who are junior, recently gone forth, newly come to this teaching and training. If they don’t get to see the Buddha they may change and fall apart. May the Buddha approve of the mendicant Saṅgha! May the Buddha welcome the mendicant Saṅgha! May the Buddha support the mendicant Saṅgha now as he did in the past!”
https://suttacentral.net/mn67/en/sujato ... ript=latin
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Keren Arbel's Jhāna

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:06 am Based on what? Why would the Buddha repeat himself?
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I don't know about jhanas that's why I haven't participated on jhana topics. Perhaps the first jhana needs particularly this isolation that gives the lack of desire for sensual objects. Perhaps in first jhana there still could be desire for other kind of forms and the other aggregates but the Buddha is mentioning specifically no sensual desire. If this is the case there's no sensual existence in first jhana but there might be form existence in first jhana? I don't know, in any case, it's not repeating itself it's pointing out one particular: sensual desire. Perhaps the isolation from unwholesome states hasn't to be perfect in first jhana.
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:06 am ...
Your mind is what is separated from the hindrances, hence mental seclusion. Your mind is away from them, meaning you no longer are experiencing them. When they are present in your mind, there is no Jhāna.
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Ok, and also the isolation that gives some degree of correct understanding, ..., correcteffort, corret sati, and correct samadhi.
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:06 am ...
What is bodily seclusion to you and how does it differ from mental seclusion?
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By bodily seclusion I mean no proximity with other people and sensual things such as when in a cave, in a solitary hut, etc. I think mental seclusion is no desire for company and for sensual things.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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mjaviem
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Re: Keren Arbel's Jhāna

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:06 am ...
The Buddha had no likes/dislikes (and I'm going to sleep now, not entering in this discussion, hehe)
Still persisting in that delusion I see. He certainly disliked his fame, and he very much disliked noise. He also didn't have anytime for those who made it, unless persuaded otherwise to make the time
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What you interpret as liking and disliking by the Buddha I interpret it as approving the right and only way of practice and disapproving the wrong way of practice. It's not a matter of his preferences, it's a matter of lgiving the example with his own way of living for other's benefit.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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mjaviem
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Re: Keren Arbel's Jhāna

Post by mjaviem »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:18 am ... It falls down a bit since other ascetics also obtained Jhāna despite having wrong view...
I don't know the story but if true, they must have understood kamma-vipaka, spontaneous birth, the other world, and so on.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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