I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
Jack19990101
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Jack19990101 »

Yeah...but
It sounds rather a drag if a temple wants u for ur work skills.
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Johann
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Johann »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:51 pm
Johann wrote: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:48 pm As there are only three reasons for not going forth if knowing that way, good householder, which are intoxication with youth, health, life, the 5 reflections often undertaken, reminder and dangers are currently very present, help to do not waste of a seldom, very seldom possibility.

Not seldom are old, sick and dying people met with dears in their eyes not having made use timely of the great possibility.

And a half-hearted life, a actually greedy one, does only increase debts, not decrease them.

May good householder see the dangers before no more able to deny them soon.
Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu, well said. :anjali:
Some temporary going forth does not lead to the surface, some lead to become a returner, some to once-returner, some to no-return, and what ever last temporary going forth ends in the deathless, here and now, good householder.

In any case, this possibility, if not working, has a back-promise, so nothing to lose aside of some or all burdens.
asahi
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by asahi »

Life is difficult ordain or not .
Peace is more precious than triumph
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by JamesTheGiant »

asahi wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:50 pm Life is difficult ordain or not .
Very true! My Ajahn said "Laypeople have lay suffering, Bhikkhus have bhikkhu suffering. No escape from suffering except the final goal."
andrew73249
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by andrew73249 »

James I was wondering what your experience has been in returning to lay life, as far as the basic practicalities go. Without any possessions, bank account, or money, how did you manage to reintegrate to society? Did you just walk out of the monastery in some clothes they gave you and have to figure it all out on your own, day by day? That almost seems like a more intensive ascetic practice than living as a renunciate in a monastery.
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 10:26 pm
asahi wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:50 pm Life is difficult ordain or not .
Very true! My Ajahn said "Laypeople have lay suffering, Bhikkhus have bhikkhu suffering. No escape from suffering except the final goal."
Difficult is life as a monk; difficult is it to delight therein. Also difficult and sorrowful is the household life. Suffering comes from association with unequals; suffering comes from wandering in samsara. Therefore, be not an aimless wanderer, be not a pursuer of suffering.

Dhp 302

https://suttacentral.net/dhp290-305/en/ ... ight=false

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retrofuturist
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings James,

Let's just say, if you took the plunge and decided to re-ordain, what would you do differently this time around?

I'm curious as to any lessons you may have learnt, and whether they might have a wider application.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Johann
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Johann »

andrew73249 wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:07 am James I was wondering what your experience has been in returning to lay life, as far as the basic practicalities go. Without any possessions, bank account, or money, how did you manage to reintegrate to society? Did you just walk out of the monastery in some clothes they gave you and have to figure it all out on your own, day by day? That almost seems like a more intensive ascetic practice than living as a renunciate in a monastery.
Good householder, this days are less who really leave home and he would hardly find any who does not take his "keys back" into the "holly life". For one having really left home, the is no return.
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retrofuturist
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Sure, but that's a strange comment coming from someone who is often found spruiking temporary ordination.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
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Johann
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Johann »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 3:22 am Greetings,

Sure, but that's a strange comment coming from someone who is often found spruiking temporary ordination.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Householder Paul,

It's normal that ordinary people trace, perceive fake as real and really real as fake... a matter of used association. They sometimes, having been corrupted, even pull don't the robes of those they so intensive love on other side.

It's also that ordinary people take what ever to nourish their bias, say using a spoon to cut, a knife as septa, and aren't willing to taste, busy to defent stand, home.

Disregard of three things aren't shown by wise: generosity, render services toward parents (teacher), going forth.

And again, every ordination is temporary, even the last. Since the last, by gaining highest release, means release from Nissaya.

And since most left are merely related to the Niganthas, when once ordained, they might be able to hear the good Dhamma, and then also ordain by heart, letting go of useless refuge in the world.

Jains today, whether monks or lay people, are used to merely try to fix some of bad by their Uposatha, then retuning to business as usual...

And the answer was given in relation that most people believe that there are still many people leaving really home: there arent. And non of your favored entertainer ever has.

So good householder James once just joined other "householder" in robes, never yet tried what it is like to relay simple on the Gems, nothing further, the live of a beggar who does not beg.

Encouraging higher does not mean to not appreciated lower. Nobody falls perfect from the sky, yet nobody gained perfection took rest there where isn't any but requires disgust with the dirt around. Not seeing the dirt around, the ugly behind low pleasures, the death, corps, foul smell pain, one will not surrender, gain Saddha, and the path by this very condition.

Would one be happy when finding one day that he used to bind people back for own gains, didn't encouraged, layed out all ways, toward path and release?
One wouldjt gain anything benefical neither having served release nor encouraged toward it. Why is that: because one gains only what one gives at first place. Something good to always consider like to investigate why certain thinks don't match: reflecting ones own ways of thinking, prove them, at first place.

And, even if one has not given up everything, good householder, still enjoying all strings, isn't in a position to rightly elevate himself above them. Sure he could, as a soccer fan, discuss of whom of all those Venerables are more advanced, from the far tribune.

It's in all cases very bad to try to keep those willing to enter school from doing so because by oneself fearing to take on such burden.

Even a good drug addicted, yet not able to abound himself, having found faith in abounding, wouldn't encourage, promote and pull others back to stay enjoying them. He might merely serve others best first toward it, might by this gain the required condition to finally let go of them himself at least.

Not to speak of one who has entered the school: non would he discourage to enter as well but opposite.
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confusedlayman
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by confusedlayman »

I think james become bhikku without seeing suffering in life. Thats why hw returned ?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Bhikkhu_Jayasara
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:26 pm
andrew73249 wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:06 pm Hi James, I've read this thread with great interest, and while I know that ordaining/disrobing are ultimately personal decisions, I think I'm not alone in hoping to hear more about how things have gone for you since disrobing! Best~
I should have stayed a bhikkhu.
Now I'm back in worldly life and working as a builder, things are no better and I'm no happier.
The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence!

When I was a bhikkhu I wanted to have the freedom of a layperson, and now I'm a layperson I want to have the life of a bhikkhu again. Doh!

I still stay at the monastery for at least a month every year, sometimes two months, to help with building and outside work.
Every time I go they ask if I want to re-ordain and be a monk again, and I am tempted.
Maybe, maybe...

Worldly life is so meaningless. You know the regular 9 to 5 workday and paycheck and bills and car repairs.
And meditation is beautiful when I have the time to do hours and hours per day.

Maybe... Maybe.

well, you do have 6 more chances in this lifetime.

I wouldn't mind having my monastic pen pal back ;).
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Bhikkhu Jayasāra -http://www.youtube.com/studentofthepath and https://maggasekha.org/
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Dan74
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Dan74 »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:26 pm
andrew73249 wrote: Tue Jul 26, 2022 9:06 pm Hi James, I've read this thread with great interest, and while I know that ordaining/disrobing are ultimately personal decisions, I think I'm not alone in hoping to hear more about how things have gone for you since disrobing! Best~
I should have stayed a bhikkhu.
Now I'm back in worldly life and working as a builder, things are no better and I'm no happier.
The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence!

When I was a bhikkhu I wanted to have the freedom of a layperson, and now I'm a layperson I want to have the life of a bhikkhu again. Doh!

I still stay at the monastery for at least a month every year, sometimes two months, to help with building and outside work.
Every time I go they ask if I want to re-ordain and be a monk again, and I am tempted.
Maybe, maybe...

Worldly life is so meaningless. You know the regular 9 to 5 workday and paycheck and bills and car repairs.
And meditation is beautiful when I have the time to do hours and hours per day.

Maybe... Maybe.
James, it's great that you still spend regular periods at a monastery.

Forgive me, "if the shoe doesn't fit", but could it be that the grass is always greener pattern is exactly something to address, rather than try to flee the reality of your life once again?

No doubt, monastic life can offer more opportunities for practice and more support. But it seems to me, if the base aversion and the escapist tendency it gives rise to is not addressed, one will not be able to fully immerse oneself, avail oneself of this incredible opportunity.
_/|\_
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Johann
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Johann »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:56 pm I think james become bhikku without seeing suffering in life. Thats why hw returned ?
Yes, and today already 45 years, good householder. Less time left and already 2 maggas and phalas waisted.

If remember right, he was given there chance because those monks had looked up a driver... Not easy to find those who have left home, and follow up them, seeing the danger in the world.

But what about good householders precious time?
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confusedlayman
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by confusedlayman »

Johann wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:34 am
confusedlayman wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 5:56 pm I think james become bhikku without seeing suffering in life. Thats why hw returned ?
Yes, and today already 45 years, good householder. Less time left and already 2 maggas and phalas waisted.

If remember right, he was given there chance because those monks had looked up a driver... Not easy to find those who have left home, and follow up them, seeing the danger in the world.

But what about good householders precious time?
Are you asking me?
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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