Rebirth and our Mental State

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Ceisiwr
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Rebirth and our Mental State

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sujato has argued that concern for the mental state of a person who is dying, since it is a condition for the their rebirth, is a quirk of Theravāda. Do you think that is true, or do you think the texts show that our last moments are important in that regard?
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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retrofuturist
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Re: Rebirth and our Mental State

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ceisiwr,
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:07 am Sujato has argued that concern for the mental state of a person who is dying, since it is a condition for the their rebirth, is a quick of Theravāda. Do you think that is true, or do you think the texts show that our last moments are important in that regard?
I assume you mean quirk? From what I've seen, the Tibetan tradition seems at least as interested in this.

Is Sujato suggesting it's a "quirk of Theravada" vis-a-vis the Suttas, or vis-a-vis other traditions?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Rebirth and our Mental State

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:23 am Greetings Ceisiwr,
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:07 am Sujato has argued that concern for the mental state of a person who is dying, since it is a condition for the their rebirth, is a quick of Theravāda. Do you think that is true, or do you think the texts show that our last moments are important in that regard?
I assume you mean quirk? From what I've seen, the Tibetan tradition seems at least as interested in this.

Is Sujato suggesting it's a "quirk of Theravada" vis-a-vis the Suttas, or vis-a-vis other traditions?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Yes. I've edited it now. It's from his post, now a short book, "How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist"
deathbed kamma
Most Theravadins are very concerned about the kamma that is made at the time of death. They believe that the last “thought moment” can determine the place of rebirth.

However this teaching is not only absent from the EBTs, it contradicts the fundamental idea of kamma. It is moral intention, not a passing thought, that shapes rebirth. Most thoughts have little ethical weight, and this is especially the case if someone is weak and medicated on their deathbed.

For the EBTs, rebirth is always determined by some act of moral significance: giving, undertaking precepts, having insight into the truth. Of course, this may be a purely mental act, but it must be a mental act of moral significance.

Now, while rebirth is not directed by the final “thought”, there are a couple of examples in the EBTs where an exceptionally strong moral volition at the time of death does determine rebirth. In one, the corrupt tax collector Dhanañjani is converted from his wicked ways on his deathbed, and achieves genuine repentance for a life ill-lived. In another, if a warrior is leaping into battle with a mind of hate and thoughts of killing, and they are killed in that moment, they will go to a bad rebirth.

Normal deaths are not like this, and most people are not doing ethically significant acts at the time of death. Their rebirth will, for the most part, be determined by the deeds they have done throughout their life. In fact, this understanding is maintained in the Abhidhamma tradition, which describes the different kinds of kamma that can predominate at the time of death. Practically, though, the death-proximate kamma is strongly emphasized.

Obviously it is a good thing to support those who are dying, and help them to maintain a wholesome mind state. But we need not fear that a single stray thought will propel us to a bad rebirth. As the Buddha said to his relative Mahānāma, “Do not fear, do not fear!” Someone who has lived a good life will have a good rebirth.
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ho ... list/23019
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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SDC
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Re: Rebirth and our Mental State

Post by SDC »

If a person were to become sufficiently dispassionate through effort by way of any number of different contemplations, not even necessarily a deliberate contemplation of death, they would’ve been well-fortified against confusion when death actually arrives. Someone who made no such effort seems to have little to no chance to do so if they didn’t make any such effort when they were relatively healthy. Also if we look at AN 5.215, and the several suttas that follow, it seems clear that the lifestyle and our degree of development is what will determine the clarity available when death comes.
Last edited by SDC on Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Rebirth and our Mental State

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ceisiwr,

Thanks for clarifying.

My sense is that the Theravada tradition's creation of a "rebirth linking consciousness" has fuelled this departure.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Jack19990101
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Re: Rebirth and our Mental State

Post by Jack19990101 »

It is a topic of no significance.

Most of us don't have enough Sati over the last moment of death. One could try to have Sati on moments before falling asleep, one can try to have sati over the moments right before a dream arises. But can we?
Audition on the final moments of life, is even harder.

For those who do have Sati over death/sleep, I don't think those moments r significant to them at all.

If one is gonna reborn, one is unable to bare audience for last moments.
If one bares audience, one is not gonna reborn.

Topic is a moot.
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Post by sunnat »

“ [Ven.Sariputta]…householder, you should train yourself in this way: 'I won't cling to what is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect; my consciousness will not be dependent on that.' That's how you should train yourself."

When this was said, Anathapindika the householder wept and shed tears.

Ven. Ananda said to him, "Are you sinking, householder? Are you foundering?"

"No, venerable sir. I'm not sinking, nor am I foundering. It's just that for a long time I have attended to the Teacher, and to the monks who inspire my heart, but never before have I heard a talk on the Dhamma like this."



Then Ven. Sariputta and Ven. Ananda, having given this instruction to Anathapindika the householder, got up from their seats and left. Then, not long after they left, Anathapindika the householder died and reappeared in the Tusita heaven. Then Anathapindika the deva's son, in the far extreme of the night, his extreme radiance lighting up the entirety of Jeta's Grove, went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, bowed down to him and stood to one side. As he was standing there, he addressed the Blessed One with this verse:

This blessed Jeta's Grove,
home to the community of seers,
where there dwells the Dhamma King:
the source of rapture for me.

Action, clear-knowing, & mental qualities, virtue, the highest [way of] life:
through this are mortals purified,
not through clan or wealth.

Thus the wise,
seeing their own benefit,
investigating the Dhamma appropriately,
should purify themselves right there.



That is what Anathapindika the deva's son said.

The Teacher approved. Then Anathapindika the deva's son, [knowing,] "The Teacher has approved of me," bowed down to him, circled him three times, keeping him to his right, and then disappeared right there.”


Another perspective is that throughout life kamma is made and resultants depending on that are experienced, further resulting in kammas and so on throughout samsara. Each present moment depends on the passing of previous moments. Thus one may say that life is a succession of dependent deaths each determined by preceding ones. An evil lifes kamma resultants are greatly ameliorated by wholesomeness. Just as a lump of salt disappears in a river while making a cup of water undrinkable. So of course end of life mindstates are important. This is logical just as Ananda logically deducing that the deva who visited Buddha was Anathapindika.
SarathW
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Re: Rebirth and our Mental State

Post by SarathW »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:35 am
retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:23 am Greetings Ceisiwr,
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 12:07 am Sujato has argued that concern for the mental state of a person who is dying, since it is a condition for the their rebirth, is a quick of Theravāda. Do you think that is true, or do you think the texts show that our last moments are important in that regard?
I assume you mean quirk? From what I've seen, the Tibetan tradition seems at least as interested in this.

Is Sujato suggesting it's a "quirk of Theravada" vis-a-vis the Suttas, or vis-a-vis other traditions?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Yes. I've edited it now. It's from his post, now a short book, "How Early Buddhism differs from Theravada: a checklist"
deathbed kamma
Most Theravadins are very concerned about the kamma that is made at the time of death. They believe that the last “thought moment” can determine the place of rebirth.

However this teaching is not only absent from the EBTs, it contradicts the fundamental idea of kamma. It is moral intention, not a passing thought, that shapes rebirth. Most thoughts have little ethical weight, and this is especially the case if someone is weak and medicated on their deathbed.

For the EBTs, rebirth is always determined by some act of moral significance: giving, undertaking precepts, having insight into the truth. Of course, this may be a purely mental act, but it must be a mental act of moral significance.

Now, while rebirth is not directed by the final “thought”, there are a couple of examples in the EBTs where an exceptionally strong moral volition at the time of death does determine rebirth. In one, the corrupt tax collector Dhanañjani is converted from his wicked ways on his deathbed, and achieves genuine repentance for a life ill-lived. In another, if a warrior is leaping into battle with a mind of hate and thoughts of killing, and they are killed in that moment, they will go to a bad rebirth.

Normal deaths are not like this, and most people are not doing ethically significant acts at the time of death. Their rebirth will, for the most part, be determined by the deeds they have done throughout their life. In fact, this understanding is maintained in the Abhidhamma tradition, which describes the different kinds of kamma that can predominate at the time of death. Practically, though, the death-proximate kamma is strongly emphasized.

Obviously it is a good thing to support those who are dying, and help them to maintain a wholesome mind state. But we need not fear that a single stray thought will propel us to a bad rebirth. As the Buddha said to his relative Mahānāma, “Do not fear, do not fear!” Someone who has lived a good life will have a good rebirth.
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ho ... list/23019
Most Theravadins are very concerned about the kamma that is made at the time of death. They believe that the last “thought moment” can determine the place of rebirth.
As far as I know, Theravada does not believe that the last thought moment is the only determine factor for place of rebirth.
I wonder how Bhante Sujato arrives at this.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Joe.c
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Re: Rebirth and our Mental State

Post by Joe.c »

Last thought moment in the mind is still important for one who hasn’t trained his faculties. Because there will be uncontrollable thought occurs in mind such as memory in the past about bad deeds. If this thought (or even a wrong view) is continuing replay in your mind, These may bring you to lower realm.

However, if you have trained your faculties in daily life and maintain it through out for 24/7 such as 5 precepts or even jhana. Last thought or any thought will not make any different, because your wisdom and faculties will be there to support you. Your good habit in daily life will be the support /foundation. This is how Buddha taught. See example of SN 55.21 (for those already in the path). So don’t forget about 5 precepts in daily life.
SN 55.21 wrote:In the same way, take someone whose mind has for a long time been imbued with faith, ethics, learning, generosity, and wisdom. Their body consists of form, made up of the four elements, produced by mother and father, built up from rice and porridge, liable to impermanence, to wearing away and erosion, to breaking up and destruction.

Right here the crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, jackals, and many kinds of little creatures devour it.

But their mind rises up, headed for a higher place.
If you are in the first category (most of people), at least know someone that is good. Then ask them to visit you and remind you about true dhamma when you are sick.

He/she may be able to help when you are dying/sick by telling you about true dhamma. You have seen this in many sutta, the householders or monks ask an arahant or Buddha to visit to remind them about the True dhamma. Some of them enter the stream, some of them get another birth in heavens, some even become an arahant.

If this is not possible, at least have a youtube/mp3 player of a good person who teach true dhamma that can replay especially Sutta (aka true dhamma, precepts, 4NT, N8FP). Hopefully when you hear true dhamma, your mind become uplifting or happy.

So it always good to know and associate with someone who is good in characters and know true dhamma.

See SN 55.54, SN 55.26, MN 143, and many others.

Make sure you die/sick happy/peacefully. Don’t have any of the unwholesome thoughts occur in your mind. 😀

Good luck.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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