sense bases disappear ?

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Spiny Norman
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:30 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:27 pm

The narrative that they immediately all cease in sequence is further complicated by the fact that Āryaśrāvakas and the Buddha himself, in the Pāli Canon, are described as experiencing vedanā.
I think upon awakening all the links will never arise again is what is meant, when we look at the cessation mode of dependent origination. What’s left is old kamma, which is winding down.
Is there a practical difference between the nidanas ceasing, and not arising again? Either way the nidanas are no more.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:31 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:27 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:24 pmI used to think of it as a gradual winding down of the nidanas, but I'm not sure the DO suttas actually support that.
An immediate cessation of all the nidanas is what the DO suttas appear to describe, ie when this ceases, that ceases, right through the sequence of nidanas.
Why does the cessation have to be instantaneous though? Why can't there be a "process" of cessation, such as a "whirling down" of activity?

The narrative that they immediately all cease is further complicated by the fact that Āryaśrāvakas and the Buddha himself, in the Pāli Canon, are described as experiencing vedanā.
The distinction in the Aggregates Sutta suggests it is only clinging aggregates which cease for the Arahant, not aggregates per se.
By that logic, DO can still be ongoing in the form of contact, aging, etc., but there is simply no clinging. Unclung-to sense bases, unclung-to contact, etc., is so much more sensible than "no sense bases" and "no contact," and I entertain what some people might and have characterized as radical buddhologies that actually do suggest "no sense bases" etc. The way it is being suggested here though simply reveals a general lack of understanding of what key Buddhist terms, such as āyatana, indriya, and phassa, actually mean in the case of many of the posters here.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ॐ अ अं आं अंः आंः अं आं इं ईं उं ऊं ऋं ॠं ऌं ॡं एं ऐं ओं औं अं अः
अं रं पं चं नं लं दं वं डं षं वं तं यं ष्टं कं सं मं गं थं जं श्वं

व्हँ व वं वां वंः वांः वं वां विं वीं वुं वूं वृं वॄं वॢं वॣं वें वैं वों वौं वं वः
धं शं खं क्षं स्तं ज्ञं र्थं भं छं स्मं ह्वं स्तं घं ठं णं फं स्कं य्सं श्चं टं ढं

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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:34 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:30 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:27 pm

The narrative that they immediately all cease in sequence is further complicated by the fact that Āryaśrāvakas and the Buddha himself, in the Pāli Canon, are described as experiencing vedanā.
I think upon awakening all the links will never arise again is what is meant, when we look at the cessation mode of dependent origination. What’s left is old kamma, which is winding down.
Is there a practical difference between the nidanas ceasing, and not arising again? Either way the nidanas are no more.
Well I don’t think that upon awakening ignorance ceases, then kamma which is there then ceases then the six sense bases which are there then ceases. Rather when ignorance is gone the rest of the links can never arise again. What’s left is the result of old kamma.
“In faith, recollect the immeasurable Buddha!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy.

In faith, recollect the immeasurable Dhamma!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy.

In faith, recollect the immeasurable Saṅgha!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy”


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Spiny Norman
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:38 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:31 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:27 pm Why does the cessation have to be instantaneous though? Why can't there be a "process" of cessation, such as a "whirling down" of activity?

The narrative that they immediately all cease is further complicated by the fact that Āryaśrāvakas and the Buddha himself, in the Pāli Canon, are described as experiencing vedanā.
The distinction in the Aggregates Sutta suggests it is only clinging aggregates which cease for the Arahant, not aggregates per se.
By that logic, DO can still be ongoing in the form of contact, aging, etc., but there is simply no clinging. Unclung-to sense bases, unclung-to contact, etc., is so much more sensible than "no sense bases" and "no contact," and I entertain what some people might and have characterized as radical Buddhologies that actually do suggest "no sense bases" etc. The way it is being suggested here though simply reveals a general lack of understanding of what key Buddhist terms, such as āyatana, indriya, and phassa, actually mean in the case of many of the posters here.
I've seen that as an interpretation, ie the nidanas from formations to feeling continue, but with no ignorance, craving, etc. But the DO suttas don't really support this "partial cessation" model.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:44 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:38 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:31 pm

The distinction in the Aggregates Sutta suggests it is only clinging aggregates which cease for the Arahant, not aggregates per se.
By that logic, DO can still be ongoing in the form of contact, aging, etc., but there is simply no clinging. Unclung-to sense bases, unclung-to contact, etc., is so much more sensible than "no sense bases" and "no contact," and I entertain what some people might and have characterized as radical Buddhologies that actually do suggest "no sense bases" etc. The way it is being suggested here though simply reveals a general lack of understanding of what key Buddhist terms, such as āyatana, indriya, and phassa, actually mean in the case of many of the posters here.
I've seen that as an interpretation, ie the nidanas from formations to feeling continue, but with no ignorance, craving, etc. But the DO suttas don't really support this "partial cessation" model.
In what way don't they support it? The suttas speak of liberated ones with vedanā. Vedanā means that there is the presence of contact. Contact means that there is the presence of sense bases.
ॐ अ अं आं अंः आंः अं आं इं ईं उं ऊं ऋं ॠं ऌं ॡं एं ऐं ओं औं अं अः
अं रं पं चं नं लं दं वं डं षं वं तं यं ष्टं कं सं मं गं थं जं श्वं

व्हँ व वं वां वंः वांः वं वां विं वीं वुं वूं वृं वॄं वॢं वॣं वें वैं वों वौं वं वः
धं शं खं क्षं स्तं ज्ञं र्थं भं छं स्मं ह्वं स्तं घं ठं णं फं स्कं य्सं श्चं टं ढं

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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:44 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:38 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:31 pm

The distinction in the Aggregates Sutta suggests it is only clinging aggregates which cease for the Arahant, not aggregates per se.
By that logic, DO can still be ongoing in the form of contact, aging, etc., but there is simply no clinging. Unclung-to sense bases, unclung-to contact, etc., is so much more sensible than "no sense bases" and "no contact," and I entertain what some people might and have characterized as radical Buddhologies that actually do suggest "no sense bases" etc. The way it is being suggested here though simply reveals a general lack of understanding of what key Buddhist terms, such as āyatana, indriya, and phassa, actually mean in the case of many of the posters here.
I've seen that as an interpretation, ie the nidanas from formations to feeling continue, but with no ignorance, craving, etc. But the DO suttas don't really support this "partial cessation" model.
They do
Bhikkhus, I will teach you new and old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the way leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen to that and attend closely, I will speak….

“And what, bhikkhus, is old kamma? The eye is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt. The ear is old kamma … The mind is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt. This is called old kamma.

“And what, bhikkhus is new kamma? Whatever action one does now by body, speech, or mind. This is called new kamma.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the cessation of kamma? When one reaches liberation through the cessation of bodily action, verbal action, and mental action, this is called the cessation of kamma.
https://suttacentral.net/sn35.146/en/bo ... ight=false
They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is no return to any state of existence.’

They understand: ‘Here there is no stress due to the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, or ignorance. There is only this modicum of stress, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’ They understand: ‘This field of perception is empty of the perception of the defilements of sensuality, desire to be reborn, and ignorance. There is only this that is not emptiness, namely that associated with the six sense fields dependent on this body and conditioned by life.’ And so they regard it as empty of what is not there, but as to what remains they understand that it is present. That’s how emptiness is born in them—genuine, undistorted, and pure.
https://suttacentral.net/mn121/en/sujat ... ript=latin

When someone awakens what is left is the result of their past intentions, such as the 6 senses. Their body and mind, plus consciousness. Incidentally this also shows how ignorance and volitions in the 12 link scheme are in a past life.
“In faith, recollect the immeasurable Buddha!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy.

In faith, recollect the immeasurable Dhamma!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy.

In faith, recollect the immeasurable Saṅgha!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy”


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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:33 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:30 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:27 pm

The narrative that they immediately all cease in sequence is further complicated by the fact that Āryaśrāvakas and the Buddha himself, in the Pāli Canon, are described as experiencing vedanā.
I think upon awakening all the links will never arise again is what is meant, when we look at the cessation mode of dependent origination. What’s left is old kamma, which is winding down.
Certain processes are still ongoing, no? "Contact" isn't once-in-a-lifetime like birth and death are, and aging is similar. There is still eye-consciousness, the eye, and vedanā for an Āryaśrāvaka. There isn't clinging, grasping, etc., if he is perfected.
Yes. The result of previous kamma. What has been cut off is ignorance in this life, and so kamma in this life never arises again. Kamma never arising again, consciousness never arises again and so on.
“In faith, recollect the immeasurable Buddha!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy.

In faith, recollect the immeasurable Dhamma!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy.

In faith, recollect the immeasurable Saṅgha!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy”


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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I can agree with that. In traditional models, for the Arhat, there is no subsequent contact in another life. But there remains contact related to the aggregates that is "unclung-to" in the remainder of this life.

Ambiguity arises for some because there are not multiple instances of six sense bases and birth, etc., in one life, but there are multiple instances of phassa, vedanā, etc., in one life.
ॐ अ अं आं अंः आंः अं आं इं ईं उं ऊं ऋं ॠं ऌं ॡं एं ऐं ओं औं अं अः
अं रं पं चं नं लं दं वं डं षं वं तं यं ष्टं कं सं मं गं थं जं श्वं

व्हँ व वं वां वंः वांः वं वां विं वीं वुं वूं वृं वॄं वॢं वॣं वें वैं वों वौं वं वः
धं शं खं क्षं स्तं ज्ञं र्थं भं छं स्मं ह्वं स्तं घं ठं णं फं स्कं य्सं श्चं टं ढं

आँः वीँः राँः हूँः खाँः वज्रधातूँः वाँः
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:00 pm I can agree with that. In traditional models, for the Arhat, there is no subsequent contact in another life. But there remains contact related to the aggregates that is "unclung-to" in the remainder of this life.

Ambiguity arises for some because there are not multiple instances of six sense bases and birth, etc., in one life, but there are multiple instances of phassa, vedanā, etc., in one life.
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“In faith, recollect the immeasurable Buddha!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy.

In faith, recollect the immeasurable Dhamma!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy.

In faith, recollect the immeasurable Saṅgha!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy”


Tekicchakārittheragāthā 6.2
Spiny Norman
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:45 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:44 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:38 pm
By that logic, DO can still be ongoing in the form of contact, aging, etc., but there is simply no clinging. Unclung-to sense bases, unclung-to contact, etc., is so much more sensible than "no sense bases" and "no contact," and I entertain what some people might and have characterized as radical Buddhologies that actually do suggest "no sense bases" etc. The way it is being suggested here though simply reveals a general lack of understanding of what key Buddhist terms, such as āyatana, indriya, and phassa, actually mean in the case of many of the posters here.
I've seen that as an interpretation, ie the nidanas from formations to feeling continue, but with no ignorance, craving, etc. But the DO suttas don't really support this "partial cessation" model.
In what way don't they support it? The suttas speak of liberated ones with vedanā. Vedanā means that there is the presence of contact. Contact means that there is the presence of sense bases.
The phassa-vedana link appears peculiar to DO.
Apart from that, the suttas just say that vinnana, sanna and vedana are conjoined, ie they always arise together.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:23 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:45 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:44 pm

I've seen that as an interpretation, ie the nidanas from formations to feeling continue, but with no ignorance, craving, etc. But the DO suttas don't really support this "partial cessation" model.
In what way don't they support it? The suttas speak of liberated ones with vedanā. Vedanā means that there is the presence of contact. Contact means that there is the presence of sense bases.
The phassa-vedana link appears peculiar to DO.
Apart from that, the suttas just say that vinnana, sanna and vedana are conjoined, ie they always arise together.
They are present at all the links of the 12 link scheme. What the 12 link teaching is looking at is the root or primary condition, but other dhammas are still there at each link.
“In faith, recollect the immeasurable Buddha!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy.

In faith, recollect the immeasurable Dhamma!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy.

In faith, recollect the immeasurable Saṅgha!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy”


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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 4:23 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:45 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:44 pmI've seen that as an interpretation, ie the nidanas from formations to feeling continue, but with no ignorance, craving, etc. But the DO suttas don't really support this "partial cessation" model.
In what way don't they support it? The suttas speak of liberated ones with vedanā. Vedanā means that there is the presence of contact. Contact means that there is the presence of sense bases.
The phassa-vedana link appears peculiar to DO.
Apart from that, the suttas just say that vinnana, sanna and vedana are conjoined, ie they always arise together.
I suppose it depends upon if we consider the relations of certain links in DO to apply to all of experience or not. Traditionally, if DO does not apply to it, it is the unconditioned.

The only way in the Buddha's suttas that those three are conjoined is via contact. Food for thought, IMO. There is no other mechanic outlined for vedanā and no other justification outlined for their conjunction.
ॐ अ अं आं अंः आंः अं आं इं ईं उं ऊं ऋं ॠं ऌं ॡं एं ऐं ओं औं अं अः
अं रं पं चं नं लं दं वं डं षं वं तं यं ष्टं कं सं मं गं थं जं श्वं

व्हँ व वं वां वंः वांः वं वां विं वीं वुं वूं वृं वॄं वॢं वॣं वें वैं वों वौं वं वः
धं शं खं क्षं स्तं ज्ञं र्थं भं छं स्मं ह्वं स्तं घं ठं णं फं स्कं य्सं श्चं टं ढं

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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:58 pm Yes. The result of previous kamma. What has been cut off is ignorance in this life, and so kamma in this life never arises again. Kamma never arising again, consciousness never arises again and so on.
That is not so , consciousness still arises . But it doesnt get polluted anymore .
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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asahi wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:26 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:58 pm Yes. The result of previous kamma. What has been cut off is ignorance in this life, and so kamma in this life never arises again. Kamma never arising again, consciousness never arises again and so on.
That is not so , consciousness still arises . But it doesnt get polluted anymore .
For Buddhas and Arahants consciousness never arises again after they have died.
“In faith, recollect the immeasurable Buddha!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy.

In faith, recollect the immeasurable Dhamma!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy.

In faith, recollect the immeasurable Saṅgha!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy”


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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:14 am
As I understand what you've said, and again, correct me if I'm wrong... you're accepting #3 & #4 for the first nidana, but beyond that you're introducing what you call "the cessation mode means those links never arise again" mode of causality (i.e. "with no kamma, consciousness (in the womb) does not arise"), which sounds a lot like the "from the cessation of this comes the non-arising of that" which I described above as being external to the four-pronged logic of Idappaccayatā. You explain that they don't arise again, but you're silent on how they actually cease.
I'm accepting all of the idappaccayatā, since that is just a short hand for dependent origination. What 3 & 4 is saying is that when x doesn't exist, y which depends on it can't exist either. For example if there is no birth, there can be no ageing and death. When birth does not exist, ageing and death cannot exist. They won't come into being because there is no basis for them to arise.
So perhaps you "don't see how" it is a different form of conditionality from what is specified in idappaccayata , but likewise, I "don't see how" it isn't. It really does seem, from how I read your words, as if you're putting the cessation of everything from vinnana onwards down to parinibbana, rather than to the cessation of the previous nidana, which is how it is actually described in the suttas.
The suttas outline it so that when ignorance is gone, none of the other links can arise again. When ignorance is gone there is no basis for kamma. When there is no kamma there is no basis for consciousness. When there is no more consciousness then there is no basis for name & form, and so on. Think of it this way. When there is no craving at all, there is no clinging. When there is no birth, no death.

"When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases." - SN 12.62
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“In faith, recollect the immeasurable Buddha!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy.

In faith, recollect the immeasurable Dhamma!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy.

In faith, recollect the immeasurable Saṅgha!
Your body soaked with rapture; you’ll always be full of joy”


Tekicchakārittheragāthā 6.2
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