Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Alex123
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by Alex123 »

dharmacorps wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:56 pm To a mosquito, you have an "impossibly" long lifetime.
It is within the realm of physics/possibilities.

A lifespan that exceeds or is almost the same as that of a planet on which this being is, is impossible.
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by DNS »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:54 pm So the planet for Tavatimsa heaven would be >100 times further than Pluto is from Sun.
Only if one assumes Tavatimsa is in this solar system. And only if one sees the cosmology as referring to life on other planets, higher intelligent beings on other planets in other solar systems. The traditional, orthodox view would be that they exist in some celestial realm.

It could be in another solar system, where perhaps the star (sun) is much larger and planets revolve at a slower pace. Or that the numbers are just exaggerated and not 100% precise.
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by cappuccino »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:57 pm impossible.
Time functions differently in other realms


The land of Fairy for example
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by Alex123 »

DNS wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:19 pm It could be in another solar system, where perhaps the star (sun) is much larger and planets revolve at a slower pace. Or that the numbers are just exaggerated and not 100% precise.
Yes, it most likely is another star system. However, the planet has to move fast enough not to fall into the star.

If the star is much larger than our Sun, then what I understand is that its lifespan is MUCH shorter.
A star’s life expectancy depends on its mass. Generally, the more massive the star, the faster it burns up its fuel supply, and the shorter its life. The most massive stars can burn out and explode in a supernova after only a few million years of fusion. A star with a mass like the Sun, on the other hand, can continue fusing hydrogen for about 10 billion years. And if the star is very small, with a mass only a tenth that of the Sun, it can keep fusing hydrogen for up to a trillion years, longer than the current age of the universe.
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by Joe.c »

Don't use logic or current science to interpret the Sutta. The current science is still primitive. :)

Higher beings don't even need to breath.

Develop your faculties from Sila, Samadhi and Panna.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by dharmacorps »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:57 pm
A lifespan that exceeds or is almost the same as that of a planet on which this being is, is impossible.
Maybe according to you, but The Buddha described the universe as having no discoverable beginning, with periods of expansion and contraction.

Physicists now see this as a likely situation too.

You are assuming a judeo-christian, physical body clorkwork universe. Your calculator won't help you solve the problem you think you found.
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by Alex123 »

dharmacorps wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:06 pm
Alex123 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:57 pm
A lifespan that exceeds or is almost the same as that of a planet on which this being is, is impossible.
Maybe according to you, but The Buddha described the universe as having no discoverable beginning, with periods of expansion and contraction.

Physicists now see this as a likely situation too.

You are assuming a judeo-christian, physical body clorkwork universe. Your calculator won't help you solve the problem you think you found.
Well, I view the universe as most likely being what most current science explains it to be. Started with big bang, about 13 billion years ago and might go on for countless years. It doesn't seem like there is endless expansion/contraction as it violates entropy. There may be parallel universes, though.
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by dharmacorps »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:44 pm
Well, I view the universe as most likely being what most current science explains it to be. Started with big bang, about 13 billion years ago and might go on for countless years. It doesn't seem like there is endless expansion/contraction as it violates entropy. There may be parallel universes, though.
If you want to put current scientific understanding, or your interpretation of it before the teachings of the Buddha have at it. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter because science can only tentatively describe some physical processes, not spiritual/psychspiritual ones, which the Buddha was concerned with. I am a scientist by occupation. It is a tool, that is it.
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

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Current View of Science on the Universe
Dark matter is a form of matter thought to account for approximately 85% of the matter in the universe and about a quarter of its total energy density. Its presence is implied in a variety of astrophysical observations, including gravitational effects that cannot be explained by accepted theories of gravity unless more matter is present than can be seen. For this reason, most experts think that dark matter is abundant in the universe and that it has had a strong influence on its structure and evolution. Dark matter is called dark because it does not appear to interact with observable electromagnetic radiation, such as light, and so it is undetectable by existing astronomical instruments.[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter
What Is Dark Energy?
More is unknown than is known. We know how much dark energy there is because we know how it affects the universe's expansion. Other than that, it is a complete mystery. But it is an important mystery. It turns out that roughly 68% of the universe is dark energy. Dark matter makes up about 27%. The rest - everything on Earth, everything ever observed with all of our instruments, all normal matter - adds up to less than 5% of the universe. Come to think of it, maybe it shouldn't be called "normal" matter at all, since it is such a small fraction of the universe.
https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/f ... ark-energy
A View of The Spiritual World
It’s important to understand that these realms exist as dimensions of consciousness and not as physical planes. By characterizing the celestial realms as being progressively “higher” and more refined levels of existence, and the ghostly realms as being correspondingly “lower”, the purely spiritual nature of consciousness is erroneously given a material standard. The terms “going up” and “going down” are conventional figures of speech, referring to the movement of physical bodies. These terms have very little in common with the flow of consciousness, whose subtle motion is beyond temporal comparisons. Physically moving up and down requires a deliberate exertion of effort. But when the mind gravitates to higher or lower realms of consciousness, direction is merely a metaphor and involves no effort.

When saying that the heavens and the brahma worlds are arranged vertically in a series of realms, this should not be understood in the literal sense — such as, a house with many stories. These realms exist as dimensions of consciousness, and ascent is accomplished spiritually, by attuning the mind’s conscious flow to a subtler vibration of consciousness. They are ascended in the figurative sense, by a spiritual means: that is, by the heart which has developed this sort of capability through the practices of generosity, moral virtue and meditation. By saying that hell is “down below”, one does not mean going down, physically, into an abyss. Rather, it refers to descent by spiritual means to a spiritual destination. And those who are able to observe the heavens and the realms of hell do so by virtue of their own internal spiritual faculties.

For those skilled in the mysteries of the samādhi, psychic communication is as normal as any other aspect of human experience. Arising from the flow of consciousness, the essential message is transmitted in the language of the heart as fully-formed ideas, which the inquiring individual understands as clearly as if they were words in conventional language. Each thought current emanates directly from the heart, and so conveys the mind’s true feelings, and precise meaning, eliminating the need for further clarification. Verbal conversation is also a medium of the heart; but its nature is such that spoken words often fail to reflect the heart’s true feelings, so mistakes are easily made in communicating its precise intent. This incongruity is eliminated by using direct heart-to-heart communication.

Ghosts of the Mountain - Mae Chee Kaew
viewtopic.php?p=434030
Krishna loka - Hindu Cosmology - A View of The Spiritual World
https://i.redd.it/qsvswhhgu9i81.jpg

Creation
https://harekrishnatemple.com/chapter20.html
:namaste:
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by Johann »

It's wise to simply go after the safe bet, in cases of doubt, good householder, and give proper attention space, for what would be the use when ants speculate about mystery of human beings and their life span? Yet they aren't taught the safe bet, other then yours.
..."There are some contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view: 'There is no total formlessness.' Some contemplatives & brahmans, speaking in direct opposition to those contemplatives & brahmans, say this: 'There is total formlessness.' What do you think, householders? Don't these contemplatives & brahmans speak in direct opposition to each other?"

"Yes, lord."

"With regard to this, an observant person considers thus: 'As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is no total formlessness" — I haven't seen that. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is total formlessness" — I haven't known that. If I, not knowing, not seeing, were to take one side and declare, "Only this is true, anything otherwise is worthless," that would not be fitting for me. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is no total formlessness": If their statement is true, there's the safe-bet possibility that I might reappear among the mind-made devas of form. As for those venerable contemplatives & brahmans who hold this doctrine, hold this view — "There is total formlessness": If their statement is true, there's the safe-bet possibility that I might reappear among the perception-made devas of no form. The taking up of rods & weapons, quarrels, contention, disputes, recrimination, divisiveness, & false speech are seen to arise from form, but not from total formlessness.' Reflecting thus, he practices for disenchantment toward forms, for dispassion toward forms, and for the cessation of forms....
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:17 pm ~
How on earth can you speculate on the lifespan of divine beings?
Heavens may indeed last for millions upon millions of years, that's why deva birth (as part of stream winning) is so desirable and hard to obtain.

It's still short compared to the corrupted religions (Abrahamic) since it doesn't last forever.
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by Alex123 »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:58 pm
Alex123 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:17 pm ~
How on earth can you speculate on the lifespan of divine beings?
Heavens may indeed last for millions upon millions of years, that's why deva birth (as part of stream winning) is so desirable and hard to obtain.

It's still short compared to the corrupted religions (Abrahamic) since it doesn't last forever.
The suttas do mention about incredibly huge lifespans of them. Without having direct knowledge of that, one can only speculate.
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Re: Impossibly long lifespans of devas & humans in the suttas/traditions

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Alex123 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:02 pm
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:58 pm
Alex123 wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 3:17 pm ~
How on earth can you speculate on the lifespan of divine beings?
Heavens may indeed last for millions upon millions of years, that's why deva birth (as part of stream winning) is so desirable and hard to obtain.

It's still short compared to the corrupted religions (Abrahamic) since it doesn't last forever.
The suttas do mention about incredibly huge lifespans of them. Without having direct knowledge of that, one can only speculate.
What I mean is, one can have faith if one has faith in other aspects of the teaching which can be demonstrated as true.

The suttas talk of vast lifespans for devas, but why should they be speculated as 'impossible'? There is no reason not to assume vast amounts of time for higher levels of being.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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