sense bases disappear ?

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retrofuturist
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:50 am Yet they are still 'sankhara', although not rooted in avijja.
Yes - sankhara not dependent upon avijja. The Abhidhamma system actually has reference to additional functional (kiriya) cittas which are also devoid of kammic/samsaric/sankharic potency... presumably as it felt more compelled to explain the actions and thinking of the arahant, than Sutta teachings which were designed primarily to get people to stream-entry or arahantship.
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:50 am Same for ayusankhara.
I'm not sure on that one, to be honest... I have suspicions it may be a prevailing term, pre-dating the Buddha, but that's just a guess.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by AlexBrains92 »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:00 am
AlexBrains92 wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:50 am Same for ayusankhara.
I'm not sure on that one, to be honest... I have suspicions it may be a prevailing term, pre-dating the Buddha, but that's just a guess.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Maybe. Anyway, ayusankhara and its products indriya are of the same nature, and 'vitality' implies the conceptual duality 'life/lifeless'. That's why I consider it a mere (not rooted in avijja) constructed phenomena too.

«He does not construct even the subtlest apperception with regard
to what is seen, heard or thought; how would one conceptualise
that Brahmin in this world, who does not appropriate a view?

They do not fabricate, they do not prefer, they do not accept any
doctrine; the Brahmin cannot be inferred through virtue or vows,
such a person has gone to the far shore and does not fall back.»


- Snp 4.5 -
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Coëmgenu
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:02 am Greetings,
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:55 am It is not so disconnected. That the Buddha's liberation did not liberate all of the people of the world indicates that the third noble truth is also so. One person's realization is not another's, just as one person's perception, ignorance, etc., is not another's, and this is because minds, like bodies, are distinct.
One person's arising is not another's. Therefore disconnected.

Metta,
Paul. :)
This is a nonsequitur. Please try to be on-topic in the future. Thanks.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:09 am This is a nonsequitur. Please try to be on-topic. Thanks.
It's neither non-sequitur, nor off-topic, as the topic is "sense bases disappear ?".

Hence - both the arising of salayatana and salayatananirodha - both what they are and are not - are very relevant. Apologies if you failed to discern the connection.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

My point also relates to the distinctness of the sets of six āyatanas (not internal vs external, but rather one person's internals vs another's), another way in which it is relevant. Objecting with a facile nonsequitur such as, "One person's arising is not another's. Therefore disconnected," simply illustrates that you haven't a clue concerning what is being said to you.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:35 am My point also relates to the distinctness of the sets of six āyatanas (not internal vs external, but rather one person's internals vs another's), another way in which it is relevant. Objecting with a facile nonsequitur such as, "One person's arising is not another's. Therefore disconnected," simply illustrates that you haven't a clue concerning what is being said to you.
No, I understand your point, I just don't find it altogether enthralling, as each person's arising and cessation is necessarily their own, not someone else's. How could it be otherwise? Thus, someone else's is totally disconnected and what I said in relation to that is on point and succinct, rather than non-sequitur.

Maybe in your Mahayana bodhisattva superhero liberator realms it's a different story, but I thought even Zen recognised that the Buddha can only point towards the moon. 🌙

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:30 am
retrofuturist wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:25 am Greetings,
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:21 am Whether it sounds like metaphysics or not, it's still true.
And being disconnected from samudaya and nirodha, irrelevant.
What is translated by some as "metaphysicians," lokāyatas, is likely better translated as "professional provocateurs," referring to popular public debates that would be held during the Buddha's time. Please give me a while to find the paper that persuaded me so.

This truth is directly related to both the truths of nirodha and samudāya. We feel neither the vedanā of the rūpa of other persons in the external world nor the rūpa of the insentient external world.
There is this
The terms Lokāyata and Cārvāka have historically been used to denote the philosophical school of Indian Materialism. Literally, “Lokāyata” means philosophy of the people. The term was first used by the ancient Buddhists until around 500 B.C.E. to refer to both a common tribal philosophical view and a sort of this-worldly philosophy or nature lore. The term has evolved to signify a school of thought that has been scorned by religious leaders in India and remains on the periphery of Indian philosophical thought. After 500 B.C.E., the term acquired a more derogatory connotation and became synonymous with sophistry. It was not until between the 6th and 8th century C.E. that the term “Lokāyata” began to signify Materialist thought.
https://iep.utm.edu/indmat/
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:47 amNo, I understand your point, I just don't find it altogether enthralling, as each person's arising and cessation is necessarily their own, not someone else's. How could it be otherwise? Thus, someone else's is totally disconnected and what I said in relation to that is on point and succinct, rather than non-sequitur.
This relates to why you are advocating for solipsism when you say that another person's "arising" is irrelevant. Other people exist and experience suffering and the Buddha taught this very same vehicle of "individual liberation" to them.

Let us look at the first time you attempted to retire this issue to the cupboard. I said:
In meditation, we are taught to observe and consider the internal, the external, and the internal-external. This is to aid in the ceasing of the clinging activity and associated identification activity. After the clinging activity is stopped, there is still a body, replete with sensations and feelings, that is separate from the external rūpa of the external world. For instance, when a twig was snapped, the Buddha never said "Ow," and this is because the destruction or damaging of external rūpa is distinct from the destruction or damaging (such as aging and age-related pains) of internal rūpa, i.e. "the body." Once we have stopped wrongly considering the internal rūpa, there is still the fact that internal rūpa is accompanied by consciousness while insentient external rūpa is not, and furthermore there is still the truth that external rūpa accompanied by consciousness is not felt by other distinct rūpas that are similarly accompanied by consciousness. That truth still stands, and that is irrespective of whether one is a worldling or Awakened.
Your "disconnected" response was to say that this looks like metaphysics, the first attempt to get yourself out of this corner and to downplay this truth as "disconnected" from the noble truths.

Only a solipsist would deny the above, and it goes directly to the fact that bodyminds are distinct. This was in a direct response to this foolish claim:
You cannot have an internal/external distinction without first ignorantly creating a referrent to which that distinction would apply.
The referent is still there for the Awakened, they simply don't cling to it. The referent is "this body" and "this mind" versus "that body" and "that mind." If it were any other way, the Awakened would feel the suffering of the unawakened and the unawakened would be immediately Awakened by virtue of the Buddha's Awakening. Because these things are distinct, Bodhi etc. is also distinct.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:53 am Only a solipsist would deny the above
I don't recall denying anything. I just don't care, because I don't care about metaphysics, nor I haven't taken a grandiose vow to be a superhero, strutting about saṃsāra, liberating all sentient beings, as my cape flutters in the wind.

And for what it's worth, if you're trying that on me, thanks but no thanks, and may I humbly request that you desist, and find others to save instead.

The Simsapa Sutta was provided as reason for why it's irrelevant, and so it is.

All the best and kind regards.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

The reference to the Simsapasutta does not defend your indefensible statement of, "You cannot have an internal/external distinction without first ignorantly creating a referrent to which that distinction would apply," which is only true from an utterly solipsistic worldview.

I don't really care if you disparage the Mahāyāna. I'm trying to teach you what basic technical Buddhist vocabulary actually means. I'm not trying to spark up bodhicitta in your heart.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

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Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:05 pm The reference to the Simsapasutta does not defend your indefensible statement of, "You cannot have an internal/external distinction without first ignorantly creating a referrent to which that distinction would apply," which is only true from an utterly solipsistic worldview.
The statement is obvious, and needs no defence. Internal and external rely upon a border, or division... if that border is "my self" then it's ignorant and precisely the kind of puthujjana-ism rejected by MN1.
MN1 wrote:Take an uneducated ordinary person who has not seen the noble ones, and is neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve not seen good persons, and are neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the good persons. They perceive earth as earth. But then they identify with earth, they identify regarding earth, they identify as earth, they identify that ‘earth is mine’, they take pleasure in earth. Why is that? Because they haven’t completely understood it, I say.
Internal and external are necessarily relative. That cannot be denied just because for some reason you're compelled to affirm the ontological existence of other beings, rather than recognise it as irrelevant and inconsequential to samudaya and nirodha.
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:05 pmI don't really care if you disparage the Mahāyāna. I'm trying to teach you what basic technical Buddhist vocabulary actually means. I'm not trying to spark up bodhicitta in your heart.
Please don't then. I'm not interested in what you're selling.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

That is untrue, because the Buddha still acknowledged the division between the internal rūpa of his body and external rūpa, and this was not on account of identification or clinging. Hence the relevance of pointing out why he was never pained by the snapping of a twig underfoot or some such destructive alteration of the natural world. It's not a part of his body, it's external, and vedanā does not arise in him because of the twig's destruction. The same for rocks, other persons, etc.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:13 pm That is untrue, because the Buddha still acknowledged the division between the internal rūpa of his body and external rūpa, and this was not on account of identification or clinging.
As you've already been told, the Blessed One explained in SN 22.48 that the five aggregates and the five grasping aggregates, are such, regardless of any such relative distinction.
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:13 pmHence the relevance of pointing out why he was never pained by the snapping of a twig underfoot or some such destructive alteration of the natural world.
The Buddha did not point this out. Only Coëmgenu points this out. This is because the Buddha knew such things as irrelevant proliferation disconnected from the Four Noble Truths, but Coëmgenu thought it was some profoundly enlightening and edifying utterance that needed repeating, despite no interest being expressed.
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:13 pm It's not a part of his body, it's external, and vedanā does not arise in him because of the twig's destruction. The same for rocks, other persons, etc.
Thanks Captain Obvious. :shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:21 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:13 pm It's not a part of his body, it's external, and vedanā does not arise in him because of the twig's destruction. The same for rocks, other persons, etc.
Thanks Captain Obvious. :shrug:
It is precisely this "obvious" point that renders your earlier claim invalid.

You said that "You cannot have an internal/external distinction without first ignorantly creating a referrent to which that distinction would apply," and it's "obvious" that the Buddha still observed that distinction, as per the above. He did not ignorantly create a referent. The referent was already there and he simply observed it, the internal and and external, without clinging to either of them or identifying with/as either of them.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:53 pm
FYI, the PTS Dictionary explicitly rejects that claim. I'm not saying you have to agree with the PTS, as it's not Buddhavacana, but it's worth noting the deviance.
In the PTS Dictionary we find the following
āyatana (neuter)

- sphere of perception or sense in general, object of thought, sense-organ & object; relation order
For the PTS Dictionary the 6 āyatana then are the sense organs. The eye, ear and so on. If we were to make the āyatana and indriya into two separate and distinct things, it would be with the āyatana as the sense organ of the eye and the indriya as the vision.
The "origin, ending" have been explained by MN 43, and the "gratification, drawback, and escape" must be discerned via idappacayata, because as you correctly go on to explain...False.

It is explicitly shown above in MN 43 what the faculities depend on, and it has nothing to do with avijja, thus nothing to do with paticcasamuppada.

Salayatana on the other hand are indeed described as "part of dependent origination", as dependent upon avijja, hence the abject folly in trying to pretend they are one and the same thing as indriyani...You can come to whatever conclusions you like, of course, as is your prerogative, but we come to no such conclusion.
You have misunderstood the implications of the sutta I quoted.

“Mendicants, there are these six faculties. What six? The faculties of the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind. A noble disciple comes to truly understand these six faculties’ origin, ending, gratification, drawback, and escape. Such a noble disciple is called a stream-enterer, not liable to be reborn in the underworld, bound for awakening.” - SN 48.26

The insight that makes one a sotāpanna is insight into dependent origination. Here the sutta states that part of the sotāpanna's awakening is insight into the origin etc of the faculties. Therefore, the faculties are included within dependent origination. If the faculties were something apart from paṭiccasamuppāda then the sotāpanna-to-be would not investigate them. That the sotāpanna-to-be does investigate them and becomes a sotāpanna means that the faculties are dependently arisen, in the 12-link scheme.
The Buddha does not generate "conditioned dhammas" (sankhata-dhammas). It is said in the discourses that from the cessation of avijja, comes the cessation of sankharas, so from whence would these sankhata-dhammas arise for The Blessed One?
They do not fabricate fear, or grief, or anger on account of the conditioned dhammas of form, mental ideas and thoughts, on account of any type of vedanā and they do not construct future form, vedanā, consciousness etc. On account of this they are free from emotional dukkha now, and are free from all dukkha at the end of life. What remains is the mental and physical pain of the 1st dart and the dukkha of what is pleasant and equanimous. When ignorance is no more, there is no kamma. There being no kamma, there will be no consciousness and so on. Ignorance however is the condition for kamma, which is a condition for mind and body. Having had a life before his last one, there was ignorance and kamma. As such, there had to be a mind and body in his last life. This entails the 1st dart of pain, as well as the dukkha of what is pleasant and neutral. The conditioned dhammas which the Buddha still experienced as his mentality and physical form, as his consciousness and vedanā & sañña, had ignorance as a condition. Natural laws, as ever, must be obeyed even by perfectly awakened Buddhas.
Therefore, if your statement that "the dukkha is the conditioned dhamma itself" is to be taken as true, then the Buddha, who is free from avijja, is likewise free of conditioned dhammas, and is therefore free from dukkha. Per your very own words, "the cessation mode means those links never arise again".
Addressed above.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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