Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Bundokji
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Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Post by Bundokji »

Friends,

In Buddhism, constructions and formations truly have bad reputation. They are often associated with being transient and suffering. Monotheistic religions came to oppose constructions. Abraham, the father of monotheistic religions, is said to have destroyed Terah's idols. In 2001, the Taliban destroyed The Buddhas of Bamiyan in Afghanstan, demonstrating the monotheistic opposition of using idols and statues in rituals and worshiping.

One would have thought that Buddhists should be thankful to the Taliban for destroying the idols. It appears to be inline with the Buddhas teachings and the evil nature of constructions.

How should this be understood?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Formations (sankhata-dhammas) are experienced things, dependent upon avijja.

This has nothing to do with carvings etc.

It is like taking two different meanings of an English word, and then assuming then that both words must correspond to the Pali equivalent of one of them. There is no reason for that assumption.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Bundokji
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Post by Bundokji »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:01 am Greetings,

Formations (sankhata-dhammas) are experienced things, dependent upon avijja.

This has nothing to do with carvings etc.

It is like taking two different meanings of an English word, and then assuming then that both words must correspond to the Pali equivalent of one of them. There is no reason for that assumption.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Yes, formations are experienced things as well as good and evil. Being dependent upon avijja, formations are associated with the negative in the teachings. Destroying them is stilling them from an experiential perspective. If they have nothing to do with craving, then destroying them should cause no offense.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Johann
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Post by Johann »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:56 am Friends,

In Buddhism, constructions and formations truly have bad reputation. They are often associated with being transient and suffering. Monotheistic religions came to oppose constructions. Abraham, the father of monotheistic religions, is said to have destroyed Terah's idols. In 2001, the Taliban destroyed The Buddhas of Bamiyan in Afghanstan, demonstrating the monotheistic opposition of using idols and statues in rituals and worshiping.

One would have thought that Buddhists should be thankful to the Taliban for destroying the idols. It appears to be inline with the Buddhas teachings and the evil nature of constructions.

How should this be understood?
To give skill and means in harmless way, is one thing, good householder. To take ungiven and destroy sankharas another. One leading upward, the other downwardly. One destroying sankharas and gives sankharas, goes up and down. And one using given sankharas proper to overcome all, is one who acts for beyound, leaves the beloved sand box behind.
Bundokji
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Post by Bundokji »

Johann wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:18 am To give skill and means in harmless way, is one thing, good householder. To take ungiven and destroy sankharas another. One leading upward, the other downwardly. One destroying sankharas and gives sankharas, goes up and down. And one using given sankharas proper to overcome all, is one who acts for beyound, leaves the beloved sand box behind.
If they are the wrong objects of devotions, then destroying them could be skillful means, removing distractions from the sensual realm. In their narratives, monotheists argue that if the idols and statues are of real and everlasting value, they would be indestructible. I do not see this to be in contradiction with what the Buddha taught.

I am also wondering if the allowed for his human body to be made into statues. I have read once that in some temples, they erect Buddha statues without ears because he did not want to hear that people turned him as an object of worship.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Johann
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Post by Johann »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:27 am
Johann wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 5:18 am To give skill and means in harmless way, is one thing, good householder. To take ungiven and destroy sankharas another. One leading upward, the other downwardly. One destroying sankharas and gives sankharas, goes up and down. And one using given sankharas proper to overcome all, is one who acts for beyound, leaves the beloved sand box behind.
If they are the wrong objects of devotions, then destroying them could be skillful means, removing distractions from the sensual realm. In their narratives, monotheists argue that if the idols and statues are of real and everlasting value, they would be indestructible. I do not see this to be in contradiction with what the Buddha taught.

I am also wondering if the allowed for his human body to be made into statues. I have read once that in some temples, they erect Buddha statues without ears because he did not want to hear that people turned him as an object of worship.
It's not a path to liberat other, not to speak of doing harm, good householder.

It's like when people understand "(good) labour makes free" and force others to. So good to abound such evil thought quick, otherwise it could be that others think it would be good to deprive good householder of nourishment, since that's suffering. One may leave beings nourishing on what they can relay on.

It's, how ever, right, that the Buddha didn't gave the monks (!) to build images of him, saying people are much to attached to body/form, yet praised objects of reflections toward the Noble Ones, especial the Buddha, at the same time.

And it's possible, that one on seeing a Buddha-image, reflects right, like it is possible that one reflects wrong if seeing one destroyed. Not to speak of fools destroying what others love, or even because of that.

So should another now go after taking away of all what good householder still finds dear, as thought skilful means, to liberate him, aside of wrong view?
Bundokji
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Post by Bundokji »

Johann wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:10 am It's not a path to liberat other, not to speak of doing harm, good householder.
The Bodhisattva vow is a path to liberate others, considered higher than the Arahant ideal among Mahayanists. Some present the Arahant ideal of liberating others by virtue of liberating one self. Taking away objects of devotion is not necessarily doing harm. The similarity between the spiritual experiences and drug induced experiences have been used by the religious and atheists alike to advance their agenda (such as: religion is the opium of people). Both try to reflect on the ordinary - run of the mill experience and transcend it. The use of psychedelics is not uncommon among some meditators. Would taking away these substances be an attempt to liberate others or causing them harm? not necessarily.
It's like when people understand "(good) labour makes free" and force others to. So good to abound such evil thought quick, otherwise it could be that others think it would be good to deprive good householder of nourishment, since that's suffering. One may leave beings nourishing on what they can relay on.
The destroyer is integral to constructed reality as presented by the three Hindu gods: Brahma the creator, Vishnu the preserver and Shiva the destroyer. Whenever there is arising, there is persistence while ceasing. You cannot pick one without the other two. Acting as picking one is indicative of intention. To destroy what is believed to cause harm is not to deprive others of nourishment, especially when other nourishment is being offered (the one invisible god).
It's, how ever, right, that the Buddha didn't gave the monks (!) to build images of him, saying people are much to attached to body/form, yet praised objects of reflections toward the Noble Ones, especial the Buddha, at the same time.
In my understanding, objects of reflection are praised to the extent they demonstrate the transient nature of constructions, such as a decaying corpse.
And it's possible, that one on seeing a Buddha-image, reflects right, like it is possible that one reflects wrong if seeing one destroyed. Not to speak of fools destroying what others love, or even because of that.
Kamma is not limited to bodily actions, but also include verbal and mental actions. While the Buddha never used physical action as destroying what is dear to others, he taught clearly about the shortcomings of worldly pleasures and attachments, which are dear to the vast majority of people.
So should another now go after taking away of all what good householder still finds dear, as thought skilful means, to liberate him, aside of wrong view?
Thankfully, the Buddha did not engage in governance beyond his own monastic order. The ability to disrobe would invalidate any accusation of taking away what is possibly dear to others by force. And yet, monastic rules do take away many possessions as prerequisite, leaving the monk with a robe and a bowl.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Johann
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Post by Johann »

He also stopped to argue with smart guys right there, good householder, and simply left them to their kamma.
asahi
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Post by asahi »

Money is as evil as anything , i dont think they dont worship money .
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Bundokji
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Post by Bundokji »

asahi wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:39 am Money is as evil as anything , i dont think they dont worship money .
The object of worship or devotion can be anything. One could argue that it is fame and recognition is what people seek. This could be explained through people idolizing celebrities. No wonder that many TV series were titled to convey the same thing: American Idol, Australian Idol, Britain got talent ..etc

As to the more archaic idols, the attitude of monotheism seems to be strengthening the rational ego. From a more modern psychological perspective, Freud is said to have collected statues that represent the language of the unconscious which thinks in mythical, magical and religious ways.

If the Buddha's statues are meant to be representations of the historical Buddha, they could lead to speculations and disputes. There was a member of this forum who learned Pali, and came back to argue that the historical Buddha was bald, and that most statues do not really represent him.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
asahi
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Post by asahi »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:37 am If the Buddha's statues are meant to be representations of the historical Buddha, they could lead to speculations and disputes. There was a member of this forum who learned Pali, and came back to argue that the historical Buddha was bald, and that most statues do not really represent him.
Buddha form are meant to remember Buddha as , the Tathagata . That is whatever is seen, heard, sensed and cognized, attained, searched into, pondered over by the mind—all that is fully understood .
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Bundokji
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Post by Bundokji »

asahi wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:53 am Buddha form are meant to remember Buddha as , the Tathagata . That is whatever is seen, heard, sensed and cognized, attained, searched into, pondered over by the mind—all that is fully understood .
Could be. The invisible god theory on the other hand seems more conducive to a historical narrative that conveys design in the construct. From that perspective, humans are good at worshiping images of their creation. As long as god remains invisible or outside of the world, then the designer could always be traced back or found in the world. Modern science based on empiricism seems to be closer to monotheism than Buddhism.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
asahi
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Post by asahi »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:05 am From that perspective, humans are good at worshiping images of their creation.
Buddhism statue or monument are not idol for worshiping . You have wrongly comprehended the real meaning of it .
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Bundokji
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Post by Bundokji »

asahi wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:58 pm
Bundokji wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:05 am From that perspective, humans are good at worshiping images of their creation.
Buddhism statue or monument are not idol for worshiping . You have wrongly comprehended the real meaning of it .
What you quoted was not a claim that Buddhist statues are idols for worshiping. It is a reflection on the implications of the invisible god theory. The secular mindset would agree that whatever humans find sacred is a product of their creation/imagination. I do not see any necessary connections between Buddhism and modern secularism. I view modern secularism as an extension of monotheism.

Saying that, i do not claim to know the real meaning of Buddhist statues or monuments. If i were to judge based on what i see, acts symbolic of veneration and reverence are not uncommon before a statue of the Buddha. I refrain from making definitive statements about the mindsets of those who perform these acts.

But why would a construct be necessary?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
asahi
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Post by asahi »

Veneration either towards an image of Buddha or national flags doesnt have to relate to idol worshiping . Construction is a way of remembrance and accumulation of merits .
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