Can meditation replace (or diminish) sleep?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Alex123
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Can meditation replace (or diminish) sleep?

Post by Alex123 »

Hello all,

Can meditation replace the need for sleep? Or at least allow one to sleep well and still feel as rested as before?

What has been your experience?


Thanks.
Spiny Norman
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Re: Can meditation replace (or diminish) sleep?

Post by Spiny Norman »

I recall needing less sleep when doing a lot of meditation on retreats. I'm not sure why though.
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Alex123
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Re: Can meditation replace (or diminish) sleep?

Post by Alex123 »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:45 pm I recall needing less sleep when doing a lot of meditation on retreats. I'm not sure why though.
When you don't read, don't work, don't talk to others, some of the energy is saved. Furthermore, since there is less cognitive load, the brain needs less time to flush out the toxins produced by too much thinking.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Can meditation replace (or diminish) sleep?

Post by Ceisiwr »

If i’m on retreat I need a lot less sleep. When at home, when my meditation is less regular and intense, if I meditate before bed I find it hard to get a good night sleep. I sort of stay semi-aware and awake, then waking up tired.
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cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Can meditation replace (or diminish) sleep?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Likely during meditation, you are using up less bodily energy, and don't need to sleep as much. Having it replace sleep is a bit much, but hey, there are clearly-dead monks whom Buddhists to this day insist are simply in "very deep" meditation, and maybe somehow they are. Maybe.
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Pasindu
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Re: Can meditation replace (or diminish) sleep?

Post by Pasindu »

Alex123 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 12:06 pm Hello all,

Can meditation replace the need for sleep? Or at least allow one to sleep well and still feel as rested as before?

What has been your experience?


Thanks.
Hi! Meditation can not replace sleep. Lord Buddha had the ability to enter the highest jhana levels in a blink of an eye. But even he included sleep in his timetable.
There have been monks who ignored sleep due to their dedication to attain enlightenment, such as Chakkupala thero, but that was not without cost so it was not replacing sleep.

The sutta below presents a much better solution.
https://cdn.britannica.com/primary_sou ... -058.html

But meditation does indeed help one to sleep well. And also to wake up well. These are two of the eleven benefits of loving kindness meditation.

11 benefits-
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipita ... piya.html

Although, there is nirodha samapatti state, practiced by arhaths, where one does not eat, drink, talk, move or sleep for 7 days. So that can be counted as meditation replacing sleep. But only for 7 days.
Inedible
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Re: Can meditation replace (or diminish) sleep?

Post by Inedible »

It always seemed to me that the more I meditated, the more sleep I needed. And the best way to make time for meditation has always involved losing sleep. Then it catches up with me.
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Re: Can meditation replace (or diminish) sleep?

Post by User13866 »

Need for sleep diminishes when devotion to wakefulness is established.
Bhikkhus, possessing three qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing the unmistaken way and has laid the groundwork for the destruction of the taints. What three? Here, a bhikkhu guards the doors of the sense faculties, observes moderation in eating, and is intent on wakefulness.
One in training sleeps ~ 4 hours in the second watch of the night.
"This is Nanda's devotion to wakefulness: There is the case where Nanda during the day, sitting & pacing back & forth, cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. During the first watch of the night,[1] sitting & pacing back & forth, he cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. During the second watch of the night,[2] reclining on his right side, he takes up the lion's posture, one foot placed on top of the other, mindful, alert, with his mind set on getting up.[3] During the last watch of the night,[4] sitting & pacing back & forth, he cleanses his mind of any qualities that would hold the mind in check. This is Nanda's devotion to wakefulness.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Sometimes one won't sleep for days, it depends on how one's energy is stirred up.
Dhp 296-301

They awaken, always wide awake:
Gotama's disciples
whose mindfulness, both day & night,
is constantly immersed
in the Buddha.

They awaken, always wide awake:
Gotama's disciples
whose mindfulness, both day & night,
is constantly immersed
in the Dhamma.

They awaken, always wide awake:
Gotama's disciples
whose mindfulness, both day & night,
is constantly immersed
in the Sangha.

They awaken, always wide awake:
Gotama's disciples
whose mindfulness, both day & night,
is constantly immersed
in the body.

They awaken, always wide awake:
Gotama's disciples
whose hearts delight, both day & night,
in harmlessness.

They awaken, always wide awake:
Gotama's disciples
whose hearts delight, both day & night,
in developing the mind
Wakefulness is very important but as a layman most wouldn't know what to do with it.

It's also not something widely practiced properly if at all.
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Re: Can meditation replace (or diminish) sleep?

Post by User13866 »

Buddha criticized new monks for sleeping until sunrise.
So, mendicants, when the senior mendicants left, why did you sleep until the sun came up, snoring?

What do you think, mendicants? Have you ever seen or heard of an anointed aristocratic king who rules his whole life, dear and beloved to the country, while indulging in the pleasures of sleeping, lying down, and drowsing as much as he likes?”

“No, sir.”
https://suttacentral.net/an6.17/en/suja ... ript=latin
In my experience it takes a few days to establish wakefulness such that it's minds inclination. I've done it deliberately 4-5 times and it's easier the more you do it, also it's not difficult to maintain.

However it is quite intense such that the energy stirred up needs to be controlled with samadhi & calm or it will tend to restlessness.

The samadhi then is very strong, one can easily maintain focus, the faculties are quite sharp and one's meditation is pleasant/interesting.


Thereis no "crashing" and it will take a while to develop habits that will make one as before

One can also use the energy for other work. Can become like a good slave who goes to bed after the master and gets up before the master.

Here are behaviors to cultivate
Kusita-Arambhavatthu Sutta: The Grounds for Laziness & the Arousal of Energy
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
TRobinson465
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Re: Can meditation replace (or diminish) sleep?

Post by TRobinson465 »

Alex123 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:50 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:45 pm I recall needing less sleep when doing a lot of meditation on retreats. I'm not sure why though.
When you don't read, don't work, don't talk to others, some of the energy is saved. Furthermore, since there is less cognitive load, the brain needs less time to flush out the toxins produced by too much thinking.
Same, but also meditation allows for deeper and better quality sleep. so you need less sleep in terms of quantity. Given that the Buddha did sleep, i would say it is not possible to completely replace sleep with meditation. But from my experience and what ive read on meditation and sleep, especially those who meditate before bed or are in a mindful state before falling asleep, you dont need as much due to meditation helping make your sleep better quality-giving you more time in the deep and REM sleep stages.
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Inedible
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Re: Can meditation replace (or diminish) sleep?

Post by Inedible »

If you are getting less than 6 hours every night of regular sleep, please don't drive or operate machinery. I don't care how many hours you meditate.
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