Vinnana v. Phassa

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Vinnana v. Phassa

Post by Coëmgenu »

SDC wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:37 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:11 pm
SDC wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:09 pmTypically when a person is interested in the topic at hand they don’t sidestep into a discussion about how participants are interpreting texts.
This discussion is about interpretation of texts. So many requests for suttas have been made in it. How can I "sidestep" onto the topic?
To question a right or a wrong reading is to imply there is an extent external criteria to do so, but as far as I understand it, right view is the only gauge available. Whether or not someone is reading in the way we prefer or with what presume are rose-colored glasses is not a public issue. Of course you are free to say whatever you want. I’m just explaining why I took issue with it and found it peripheral to the current topic.
I don't think things are so exceptionally relative, and that there are several consensuses in Buddhism that are universal, rebirth via DO being one. I think that the modernist version of Buddhism is simply moderns being moderns. We like to think we are wiser than our superstitious forerunners. Rebirth doesn't figure in even rather remote Western history. People don't want to believe in it because they think it's "magical," I'm pretty sure, at the end of the day. People are so committed to modern pseudo-scientific paradigms that they will actively paint the Buddhadharma as Ātmavāda just to nix rebirth via DO. From there, nonsense such as "Arhats have no sense bases" arise, or fundamental misunderstandings of phassa like we see proliferated in this thread. All from a denial of elements in the Dharma that seem too Iron Age to be true to moderns.

It's convenient for the modernists, with reconstructionist agendas, to argue that the truth cannot be seen, or that it's all relative without a small bit of Gnosis, but I don't see it that way. Obviously I also consider the fact that modernists see their interpretations as arising naturally and elegantly out of the texts themselves.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
SteRo
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Re: Vinnana v. Phassa

Post by SteRo »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 11:21 am I wonder if phassa is actually about attention and engagement.
No since attention is another universal mental factor - besides phassa - that accompanies each and every citta.
In terms of "engagement" you have to define what you understand as "engagement". "engagement" often is just an instance of papanca which might be based on the unwholesome factor of delusion which is optional.
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SteRo
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Re: Vinnana v. Phassa

Post by SteRo »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:05 pm There are many sense-objects which arise, but phassa seems to indicate the ones we actually pay attention to, the ones we engage with.
Again you are confusing factors to make up your private theory. Attention is one factor and contact is another factor.
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Re: Vinnana v. Phassa

Post by SteRo »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:12 pm No. Sense-consciouness at the six bases is simply explained as the "meeting of the two", eg eye-consciousness arising in dependence upon eye and form.

Contact must have some added significance.
Contact is a universal factor without which there is no citta. (doctrine)
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Re: Vinnana v. Phassa

Post by SteRo »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 1:12 pm ...
You really should focus on your issue and not let yourself be sidetracked by comments of forums users. Check the theravadan doctrine and assess for yourself whether it is coherent and consistent or incoherent and inconsistent.
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SDC
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Re: Vinnana v. Phassa

Post by SDC »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:04 pm
SDC wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:37 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:11 pm This discussion is about interpretation of texts. So many requests for suttas have been made in it. How can I "sidestep" onto the topic?
To question a right or a wrong reading is to imply there is an extent external criteria to do so, but as far as I understand it, right view is the only gauge available. Whether or not someone is reading in the way we prefer or with what presume are rose-colored glasses is not a public issue. Of course you are free to say whatever you want. I’m just explaining why I took issue with it and found it peripheral to the current topic.
I don't think things are so exceptionally relative, and that there are several consensuses in Buddhism that are universal, rebirth via DO being one. I think that the modernist version of Buddhism is simply moderns being moderns. We like to think we are wiser than our superstitious forerunners. Rebirth doesn't figure in even rather remote Western history. People don't want to believe in it because they think it's "magical," I'm pretty sure, at the end of the day. People are so committed to modern pseudo-scientific paradigms that they will actively paint the Buddhadharma as Ātmavāda just to nix rebirth via DO. From there, nonsense such as "Arhats have no sense bases" arise, or fundamental misunderstandings of phassa like we see proliferated in this thread. All from a denial of elements in the Dharma that seem too Iron Age to be true to moderns.

It's convenient for the modernists, with reconstructionist agendas, to argue that the truth cannot be seen, or that it's all relative without a small bit of Gnosis, but I don't see it that way. Obviously I also consider the fact that modernists see their interpretations as arising naturally and elegantly out of the texts themselves.
Having never denied rebirth or the fact that arahants have experience, it seems I am not within the scope of your definition of a modernist. At least I have that going for me. :tongue:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Vinnana v. Phassa

Post by Coëmgenu »

Paul also claims to not deny rebirth. Is your rebirth rebirth or is it the adoption of new identities, a "metaphorical rebirth," that all happens mentally within the confines of this life?

It's possible you're not a modernist, but the rest of your arguments are rather congruent to what I feel I've been explaining.

Detractors of traditionalism could just as easily say that Buddhists like to LARP the Iron Age or Medieval India. It runs both ways, of course.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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SDC
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Re: Vinnana v. Phassa

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Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:45 pm Paul also claims to not deny rebirth. Is your rebirth rebirth or is it the adoption of new identities, a "metaphorical rebirth," that all happens mentally within the confines of this life?

It's possible you're not a modernist, but the rest of your arguments are rather congruent to what I feel I've been explaining.

Detractors of traditionalism could just as easily say that Buddhists like to LARP the Iron Age or Medieval India. It runs both ways, of course.
Since there’s absolutely no evidence to the contrary I don’t even have to mince words. You obviously haven’t carefully read many things I’ve written over the years, since I do have a very strong belief in the idea that when the body breaks apart at death that the aggregates will manifest again.

Fantastic detective work. Probably no need for us to keep chatting today.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Vinnana v. Phassa

Post by Coëmgenu »

SDC wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:09 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 6:45 pm Paul also claims to not deny rebirth. Is your rebirth rebirth or is it the adoption of new identities, a "metaphorical rebirth," that all happens mentally within the confines of this life?

It's possible you're not a modernist, but the rest of your arguments are rather congruent to what I feel I've been explaining.

Detractors of traditionalism could just as easily say that Buddhists like to LARP the Iron Age or Medieval India. It runs both ways, of course.
Since there’s absolutely no evidence to the contrary I don’t even have to mince words. You obviously haven’t carefully read many things I’ve written over the years, since I do have a very strong belief in the idea that when the body breaks apart at death that the aggregates will manifest again.

Fantastic detective work. Probably no need for us to keep chatting today.
As I said, it's possible, but when something looks so much like a mallard, it's hard not to assume that it's at least a duck of some sort. Do you also feel that Ven Ñāṇavīra also actually believed in rebirth? In case I'm wrong concerning this too, are you not a fan of his exegeses? Am I confusing "Ñāṇa's" and it's a different one you think is wise?

You don't have to answer if you'd rather not chat of course.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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SDC
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Re: Vinnana v. Phassa

Post by SDC »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:23 pmAs I said, it's possible, but when something looks so much like a mallard, it's hard not to assume that it's at least a duck of some sort. Do you also feel that Ven Ñāṇavīra also actually believed in rebirth? In case I'm wrong concerning this too, are you not a fan of his exegeses? Am I confusing "Ñāṇa's" and it's a different one you think is wise?

You don't have to answer if you'd rather not chat of course.
So, just to get this straight, you haven’t really understood my views, yet you were more than willing to venture a clumsy guess about how I understand rebirth, and now you’re not even sure which monk you want to discuss, but if it were Ven. Ñāṇavīra, you aren’t really sure about his views either and want me to clarify them?

This has been illuminating, Coëmgenu. Always nice to get a refresh on where other members are in their thinking.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Vinnana v. Phassa

Post by Coëmgenu »

Based on how you were treating phassa, etc., in this thread, that was the equivalent of "quacking like a duck," refering to the "if it looks like a duck..." proverb, to me, yes.

I think you've a modernist understanding of DO. Why on earth you believe in rebirth and entertain what I consider to be "these modernist notions," I haven't a clue.
SDC wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:24 pmif it were Ven. Ñāṇavīra, you aren’t really sure about his views either and want me to clarify them?
I can't stand most Ñāṇavīrites. I think they, as a group, have a horrible grasp of the Dharma. If you wanted to present an alternate picture of him and his teachings to me, I'd be open. It's possible that he has a bunch of nasty fans that he wouldn't have wanted.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:33 pm, edited 3 times in total.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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SDC
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Re: Vinnana v. Phassa

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:thumbsup:
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Vinnana v. Phassa

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Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:29 pm I think you've a modernist understanding of DO. Why on earth you believe in rebirth and entertain what I consider to be "these modernist notions," I haven't a clue.
SDC wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:24 pmif it were Ven. Ñāṇavīra, you aren’t really sure about his views either and want me to clarify them?
I can't stand most Ñāṇavīrites. I think they, as a group, have a horrible grasp of the Dharma. If you wanted to present an alternate picture of him and his teachings to me, I'd be open. It's possible that he has a bunch of nasty fans that he wouldn't have wanted.
Maybe some other time.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Vinnana v. Phassa

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 7:23 pm Do you also feel that Ven Ñāṇavīra also actually believed in rebirth?
Perhaps reading Nanavira's own words on the logic behind his forthcoming suicide might dispel doubts on that particular issue.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Vinnana v. Phassa

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PeterC86 wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 5:37 pm
This for me is completely irrelevant. The only relevant thing for me to be on this forum is to share the buddhadhamma as I have experienced it to be liberating. This experience is in line with the understanding of Nagarjuna, those who have understood Nagarjuna, others who have understood the Buddhadhamma layed out in the Pali Canon behind the plaster of Theravada doctrine, or others who came to this realization by themselves.
It has little to do with Theravāda, as in what I have argued for here is not unique to Theravāda. It is something held in common amongst all early schools. You wouldn't even know what the Dhamma is without said early schools, without the Sangha. Based on what they have preserved and passed down, your interpretation is completely wrong. I'm including Venerable Nāgārjuna here. Venerable Nāgārjuna didn't argue that dependent origination never involved lives. He argued against understanding the links as being ultimately real. Now, you an I can have a debate about that. That is fine. What is not on the table, according to early Buddhism, and Venerable Nāgārjuna, is that dependent origination does not involve lives.
The only thing which would seem relevant to me if I was an unawakened person on this forum, was to figure out what the buddhadhamma is i.e. attain Nibbana, and not follow a parade of people living in suffering following some interpretation that is widespread. But everyone their own.
You are not awakened Peter, and I would suggest at least understanding Sāvaka Buddhism and the path of Arahantship before even attempting Madhyamaka. You have taken bodhisattva vows I assume? Doesn't the bodhisattva path involve mastering the Sāvaka path, of which Theravāda is the last of?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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