Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Post by Coëmgenu »

"Idol worship" is a preoccupation of Abrahamic religions. It has nothing to do with with Dharma. The Buddha didn't care whether his devotees worshipped a pantheon of gods and used idols to represent them in worship.

In fact, to this day, Buddhist veneration of the Buddha is most-often via the "buddharūpa," a "graven (or otherwise illustrated) image" of the Buddha. Even the stūpa, in its way, is an idol of a Buddha. That's why the buddharūpa most often occupies the place of the "honzon" (a Japanese term referring to the principle object of veneration on the altar) in Buddhist temple shrines and home shrines.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Bundokji
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

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Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:24 pm "Idol worship" is a preoccupation of Abrahamic religions. It has nothing to do with with Dharma. The Buddha didn't care whether his lay devotees worshipped a pantheon of gods and used idols to represent them in worship.

In fact, to this day, Buddhist veneration of the Buddha is most-often via the "buddharūpa," a "graven image" of the Buddha. Even the stūpa, in its way, is an idol of a Buddha. That's why the buddharūpa most often occupies the place of the "honzon" (a Japanese term referring to the principle object of veneration on the altar) in Buddhist temple shrines and home shrines.
It is not only preoccupation of Abrahamic religion, but destroying idols as symbols of worship does not make them less attached to constructs! In fact, what triggered opening this thread was watching few cars reviews by Muslims, and their utterances of god's name when they speak about aspects of the car that they happen to like. Same thing when they see a beautiful woman, or any phenomena that confirms gods existence through design. Of course, gods name is less mentioned when the shitty side of "nature" reveals itself - this is often associated with the devil.

I remember Dr. David once mentioned the monotheistic hostility towards idols, but he did not explain why. I truly find it a strange phenomena. The strangeness does not stop with the monotheists, but with Buddhists as well. The human body, whether its the Buddha or any other human, is a construct or formation that is subject to decay and death. Seeing this is described as wisdom. The Maha-parinibbana Sutta makes a clear contrast between the reactions of the Arahants and other disciples when the Buddha passed away. To quote from the same sutta:
Transient are all compounded things,
Subject to arise and vanish;
Having come into existence they pass away;
Good is the peace when they forever cease
Hence the Buddhist use of statues is equally difficult to understand. It seems both monotheists and Buddhists lack consistency between their practices and the cores of their belief systems.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

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Bundokji wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 8:55 pm The human body, whether its the Buddha or any other human, is a construct or formation that is subject to decay and death. Seeing this is described as wisdom. The Maha-parinibbana Sutta makes a clear contrast between the reactions of the Arahants and other disciples when the Buddha passed away. To quote from the same sutta:
Transient are all compounded things,
Subject to arise and vanish;
Having come into existence they pass away;
Good is the peace when they forever cease
Hence the Buddhist use of statues is equally difficult to understand. It seems both monotheists and Buddhists lack consistency between their practices and the cores of their belief systems.
Are statues any more transient and compounded than, say, the Noble Eightfold Path? To follow the Buddha's teachings, people need to do something that is structured. It's not as if merely understanding some key fact heard from the Buddha will provide instant liberation. It's a version of the "Unnabha paradox."
Bundokji
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

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Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:25 pm Are statues any more transient and compounded than, say, the Noble Eightfold Path? To follow the Buddha's teachings, people need to do something that is structured. It's not as if merely understanding some key fact heard from the Buddha will provide instant liberation. It's a version of the "Unnabha paradox."
The training is often described as "going against the grain" in the sense that the decay process is always there but often overlooked. The world is full of constructs as well as the associated decaying process. Building statues and getting infatuated by it seems to be a cause for passion rather than dispassion.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

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Bundokji wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:36 pmBuilding statues and getting infatuated by it seems to be a cause for passion rather than dispassion.
IMO, this might betray something of a "Romantic-Era" understanding of the artist and the public. It presumes that to make a statue is a Dionysian feat of inspirational passion and not an Apollonian exercise in faithful adherence to a recieved tradition. It also assumes that "idol-worshippers" are necessarily ecstatic or wild in their devotion, but maybe that's going too far. What if the statue were a means, a starting crutch, for someone to contemplate dispassion? The statue is of the disimpassioned, after all.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Bundokji
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Post by Bundokji »

Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:47 pm
Bundokji wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:36 pmBuilding statues and getting infatuated by it seems to be a cause for passion rather than dispassion.
IMO, this might betray something of a "Romantic-Era" understanding of the artist and the public. It presumes that to make a statue is a Dionysian feat of inspirational passion and not an Apollonian exercise in faithful adherence to a recieved tradition. It also assumes that "idol-worshippers" are necessarily ecstatic or wild in their devotion, but maybe that's going too far. What if the statue were a means, a starting crutch, for someone to contemplate dispassion? The statue is of the disimpassioned, after all.
Don't you think that the disimpassioned is always at a disadvantage of justifying any act of construction unless driven by a practical necessity? Buddhist monks for instance are minimalists in terms of their possessions and lifestyle. In terms of skillful means, the question "why" or the whole issue of justification in the context of the practice seems to be designed towards shedding away what is unnecessary, or triggering a sense of shame and guilt when acting in a way that does not adhere to the principles of the faith. At worst, it prevents the misuse of faith to attain worldly gains or making false claims about the teachings or misrepresenting them. It is also said that the question "why" ends or loses its meaning with the destruction of craving, hence used as a tool from the outset to prevent accumulation. As such, even the making of merit is seen with danger.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

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Bundokji wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:36 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:25 pm Are statues any more transient and compounded than, say, the Noble Eightfold Path? To follow the Buddha's teachings, people need to do something that is structured. It's not as if merely understanding some key fact heard from the Buddha will provide instant liberation. It's a version of the "Unnabha paradox."
The training is often described as "going against the grain" in the sense that the decay process is always there but often overlooked. The world is full of constructs as well as the associated decaying process. Building statues and getting infatuated by it seems to be a cause for passion rather than dispassion.
Seems to, but I've not ever known anyone, lay or monastic, have a passion for statues in that way. They remind people of the qualities of the Buddha, and provide a focus for devotional practices.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Post by Coëmgenu »

There's a good Derry Girl's quote from a sarcastic nun during a Protestant-Catholic dialogue session.

Something to the effect of: "Well, I do love me a good statue."
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Bundokji
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Constructions in Buddhist rituals

Post by Bundokji »

I found this article from the Washington Post

Buddha Statue Called Guide, Not Idol

There is a tradition that when the Buddha went to Heaven to preach to his late mother, the king so missed his presence that he had artisans create a replica in sandalwood.

The statue was put in the place where he had sat and, when the Buddha returned, it stood and saluted him. "Sit back down, take your place," the Buddha was said to have told the statue. "After my departure from this world, you will serve as a guide to my followers."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... 44a7afc02/

Is there a canonical reference to the above story?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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