How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

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robertk
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by robertk »

Konstantin Sol wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:47 pm I do not understand.
How to start practicing the path if everything is conditioned? Will it show up on its own?
I think it easy to get motivated and want to practice and see some results from our practice.
But this path is subtle and it is inevitable that the accumulations of wrong effort - that permeate everything we have ever done in life- find their way into Buddhist strivings. Most of this only complicates matters and can be a deadend.

If there is right understanding with right effort then there is no fighting against nature- there is emphasis on understanding nature instead.
And that leaves room for the elements to show their actual nature: i.e. anatta, not under mastery. They simply arise, due to manifold conditions, and perform their function and then fall away. T
This type of understanding come with a great deal of calm that is not concerned about making elements different from what they are. It comes with acceptance and equanimty- but without any wish for those factors.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

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It turns out the conclusion is this.
No control, no effort. There are only changing phenomena, arising from cause and effect, that we can only be aware of and not influence.
The thought of causing harm came to mind - it means that it is necessary, we act. The thought came about how to sleep with someone else's wife - we act. They do their job and disappear. Etc.
The mind thinks everything by itself, without our participation. That is, where conditioning leads, you have to go there. And this is the ultimate goal of teaching - spontaneity.
Right?
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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robertk
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

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Konstantin Sol wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:47 pm It turns out the conclusion is this.
No control, no effort.

There are only changing phenomena, arising from cause and effect, that we can only be aware of and not influence..
Right?
There is effort, it is just that it is associated with right view.
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robertk
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

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Konstantin Sol wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:47 pm It turns out the conclusion is this.
No control, no effort. There are only changing phenomena, arising from cause and effect, that we can only be aware of and not influence.
The thought of causing harm came to mind - it means that it is necessary, we act. The thought came about how to sleep with someone else's wife - we act. They do their job and disappear. Etc.
The mind thinks everything by itself, without our participation. That is, where conditioning leads, you have to go there. And this is the ultimate goal of teaching - spontaneity.
Right?
Development of right view and anatta-sanna is closely related to seeing into conditions. And actions give results- hence if there is understanding of conditions there would also be understanding that sleeping with the someone's wife will condition unpleasant results, sooner or later.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Johann »

A notion, seeking after a good one, of self is very importand on the path and that being the reason the Sublime Buddha taught to hold firm on being the owner of ones actions, good, or bad. And there are advices of what has to been as not self to go after skilful and don't allow those, seen as own, being a hindrance. "Samma conceit" is most importand, it's a for liberation strifing one, not a stand maintaining one, good householder.

And, btw., one is not asked to wait that one sees the backwards clear to stick to right conduct, but simply take it on firm trust at first place.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Ok, thanks, right view + effort is control, roughly speaking. When we make a decision, we are responsible for our own actions. There is an automatic act, poorly realized. But, basically, this is a non-automatic act, conscious, volitional, associated with thinking.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Goofaholix wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 9:37 pm
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:24 pm 1) Perceptions, sensations, feelings come completely automatically, their awareness is weak, practically without consciousness. Here we cannot influence unless we close all five senses from the outside world.
I'm not sure what you mean by "close all five senses from the outside world". If we are practicing intensive mediation then sense de3priovation is a part of it, part of the idea is become aware of the things you describe on a more subtle level. Either way we are interested in being more aware of the sense contacts with the outside world, and the sense contact with the inner world ie the mind.
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:24 pm 2) Further, some minor actions and decisions also usually occur automatically, awareness of them is weak. For example, we are crossing the road - the green light is on - we are going. Or bypassing obstacles on the way.
It is easy to understand these two stages that there is no "self" in them, here the action takes place, as it were, on the periphery.
If we recognise that awareness of awareness of day to day activities is weak, often because we think its not important enough to put effort into being aware during those activities, then we apply mindfulness to improve awareness.
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:24 pm Anger (feeling) has come. Getting rid of anger (control) will not arise by itself, automatically, you need to “work hard”, make efforts.
Also, dhyana will not arise by itself, automatically, we need to “work hard”, make efforts.
Yes
Konstantin Sol wrote: Sat Aug 06, 2022 2:24 pm But in my opinion this is not confirmed in practice. Learning task in physics will not be solved by itself, dhyana will not arise by itself.
Yes
Yes, I found about automatic and non-automatic actions.
"The Psychological Attitude of Early Buddhist Philosophy
(according to Abhidhamma Tradition)" Lama Anagarika Govinda.
"Peripheral consciousness is the external, most differentiated, normal "day" consciousness of a person. Its boundaries are determined by the scope of the volitional ability to reproduce the previous (past) content of consciousness, i.e. degree of control over our memory.
The line of consciousness goes through all the states of the subliminal and subperipheral zones before it reaches the state of greatest differentiation in the periphery. In this case, the subliminal consciousness is "not yet fully conscious", latent consciousness, a tendency to become conscious, and the consciousness of the subperipheral zone is not yet perfect, or, more precisely, a dream-like consciousness. Only in the peripheral zone does consciousness become reflective, and the will of the individual becomes decisive. And to the same extent that the will is conscious of itself, it acquires freedom, or at least relative freedom, and is perceived as free will ...
...Consciousness is either volitional (sasankharika) or functions automatically (asankharika). (Sankhara, which in this case is translated as "volition", should not be confused with sankharakkhandha, i.e. a group of sankhara.) ...
So, indeed, there is a non-automatic, conscious, volitional, process of thinking, decision-making, control, etc., but without an “self” and in relation to cause and effect.

But I want to make a reservation that I know the Abhidhamma in general poorly, I just found something that interested me.

I will tell my assumptions, as I see it on the example of a profane point of view:
We solve a working problem in physics (engineer).
There is a cause-and-effect process choice - decide or not. Suppose there is fatigue, but there is also a need to solve the problem, since we need money and with it we can buy food, housing, security. And if we solve the problem, we will be paid money.
We make a choice - a volitional decision is made that it is necessary to study the task - thinking, will, effort. There is intention and action.
There is an assimilation of information - directed attention, will, awareness, effort. As a result, there is an understanding of what the question was.
The question arises - are we able to solve the problem or refuse to solve it? As a result, there is a comparison of information with memory - directed attention, will, awareness, effort, recollection. There is an understanding - we can. We make a choice - we decide to act - there is an intention and action.
There is a comparison of information with memory - focused attention, will, awareness, thinking, effort, recollection. Solutions are being worked out - certain formulas and their combinations are selected. As a result, there is an understanding - which formula or combination is suitable.
Making a decision is an action. A calculation is made - directed attention, will, thinking, awareness, effort.
Let's say the calculations don't converge. A choice cause-and-effect process appears - quit the task or continue. We make a choice - we make a decision. We decide to continue - the will, the effort. There is intention and action.
A calculation is made - directed attention, will, thinking, awareness, effort. Next, the calculation is checked - thinking, awareness, effort.
If everything converges, it is necessary to make a decision - write down the results and hand over the solution of the problem to the manager or not to hand it over. A decision is made - a task is given - awareness, effort, action.

This is how, as far as I understand, conditioned phenomena occur and this is how a person acts in the conditioned world. It turns out that "self" in this process can be released, it is not needed. But the process does not happen automatically either, you need "awareness", "involvement" and "action", in general, the participation of consciousness.
That is, a person after releasing the "self" is not deprived of the opportunity to think, act and work (I had a feeling that without "self" a person cannot think, decide and work, becomes weak-willed and uncontrollable). He has all the possibilities. And he has a choice, but limited. He can make decisions and be responsible.

Did I understand the teachings correctly at the initial level? For now, this is enough for me to work calmly and form correct views.
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Thu Aug 18, 2022 4:16 pm, edited 14 times in total.
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robertk
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

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Konstantin Sol wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 3:14 pm
This is how, as far as I understand, conditioned phenomena occur and this is how a person acts in the conditioned world. It turns out that "self" in this process can be released, it is not needed. But the process does not happen automatically either, you need "awareness", "involvement" and "action", in general, the participation of consciousness.
That is, a person after releasing the "self" is not deprived of the opportunity to think, act and work (I had a feeling that without "self" a person cannot think, decide and work, becomes weak-willed and uncontrollable). He has all the possibilities. And he has a choice, but limited. He can make decisions and be responsible.

Did I understand the teachings correctly at the initial level? For now, this is enough for me to work calmly and form correct views.
I think you are getting the general idea. With right view - which is conditioned to arise by reflection on the Buddha's teaching- nothing changes with regard to 'making decisions' and so on. There are still thinking processes occuring, feelings arising and ceasing, efforts and so on.

What is different is that the wrong view that there is a self that is thinking, having feelings, making decisions is seen to be a fiction, a magic show. There are in fact only different mental and material elements that perform various functions- no self behind it all.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

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robertk wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 9:00 pm What is different is that the wrong view that there is a self that is thinking, having feelings, making decisions is seen to be a fiction, a magic show. There are in fact only different mental and material elements that perform various functions- no self behind it all.
Why always eager to bring into views and extremes the Buddha never found useful at all, good householder? That's not the Uposatha of the Jains.

How does no-self feel, think... And which not-self would make decisions...?

Phenomenas have causes. And no, not mystic functions make ideas. Jains... while farming.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Johann »

robertk wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:07 am
Konstantin Sol wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:47 pm It turns out the conclusion is this.
No control, no effort.

There are only changing phenomena, arising from cause and effect, that we can only be aware of and not influence..
Right?
There is effort, it is just that it is associated with right view.
Right effort is assosiated with right view, while wrong... with wrong, good householder.
Turning from wrong to right view: this is ones right effort! Ohh! Where is this one now related to?
Without conceit, proper one => no Ariya-path.
Last edited by Johann on Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

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Johann wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:15 am
robertk wrote: Thu Aug 18, 2022 2:07 am
Konstantin Sol wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 2:47 pm It turns out the conclusion is this.
No control, no effort.

There are only changing phenomena, arising from cause and effect, that we can only be aware of and not influence..
Right?
There is effort, it is just that it is associated with right view.
Right effort is assosiated with right view, while wrong... with wrong, good householder.
Turning from wrong to right view: this is ones right effort! Ohh! Where is this one now related to?
Without conceit, proper one => no Ariya-path.
Attakārī Sutta: The Self-Doer

Then a certain brahman approached the Blessed One; having approached the Blessed One, he exchanged friendly greetings. After pleasant conversation had passed between them, he sat to one side. Having sat to one side, the brahman spoke to the Blessed One thus:

“Venerable Gotama, I am one of such a doctrine, of such a view: 'There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer.'”(1)

“I have not, brahman, seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view. How, indeed, could one — moving forward by himself, moving back by himself(2) — say: 'There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer'? What do you think, brahmin, is there an element or principle of initiating or beginning an action?”(3)

“Just so, Venerable Sir.”

“When there is an element of initiating, are initiating beings(4) clearly discerned?”

“Just so, Venerable Sir.”

“So, brahmin, when there is the element of initiating, initiating beings are clearly discerned; of such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the other-doer.(5)

“What do you think, brahmin, is there an element of exertion(6) … is there an element of effort(7) … is there an element of steadfastness(8) … is there an element of persistence(9) … is there an element of endeavoring?”(10)

“Just so, Venerable Sir.”

“When there is an element of endeavoring, are endeavoring beings clearly discerned?”

“Just so, Venerable Sir.”

“So, brahmin, when there is the element of endeavoring, endeavoring beings are clearly discerned; of such beings, this is the self-doer, this, the other-doer. I have not, brahmin, seen or heard such a doctrine, such a view as yours. How, indeed, could one — moving forward by himself, moving back by himself — say 'There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer'?”

“Superb, Venerable Gotama! Superb, Venerable Gotama! Venerable Gotama has made the Dhamma clear in many ways, as though he were turning upright what had been turned upside down, revealing what had been concealed, showing the way to one who was lost, or holding up a lamp in the dark: 'Those who have eyes see forms!' Just so, the Venerable Gotama has illuminated the Dhamma in various ways. I go to Venerable Gotama as refuge, and to the Dhamma, and to the assembly of monks. From this day, for as long as I am endowed with breath, let Venerable Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge.”
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Johann »

Today "we" see and hear much of "There is no self-doer, there is no other-doer."...mostly for those much doing, yet not after right effort.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

Thank you!
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by Konstantin Sol »

More please clarify.
Anatta Lakkhana Sutta: Characterization of Impersonality
“Therefore, bhikkhus, every kind of form—past, present, future, inner or outer, gross or subtle, inferior or exalted, far or near—every form should be seen according to reality with correct wisdom: “This is not mine, I am not like that, this is not my "self". Any kind of feeling... any kind of perception... any kind of formations... any kind of consciousness - past, present, future, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or sublime, distant or near - all consciousness should be seen in accordance with reality with correct wisdom: "'This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self".
The five aggregates "not mine" does not mean that the body and mind cannot be used and controlled, but does it mean that there is no absolute power over them and one does not need to be attached to them?
How to understand "not mine"? What is meant here?

Especially interested in the opinion of GOOFAHOLIX
Last edited by Konstantin Sol on Fri Aug 26, 2022 7:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How to Develop and Control the Mind Without the Self

Post by equilibrium »

…..“not mine”…..means “not-self”…..via:
…..every form should be seen according to reality with correct wisdom…..
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