Reasons for the failure of the Dhamma to endure in India?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Cause_and_Effect
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Reasons for the failure of the Dhamma to endure in India?

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

The supreme ultimate teaching for liberation, the greatest gift to mankind and yet only a paltry 500 years in the land of it's discovery.

Why?

I know there are some historical reasons like war but are there also cultural and metaphysical reasons why the Dhamma ceased there?
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
asahi
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Re: Reasons for the failure of the Dhamma to endure in India?

Post by asahi »

It evolved into philosophy and monks forsaken the true practice .
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Re: Reasons for the failure of the Dhamma to endure in India?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
asahi wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:17 pm It evolved into philosophy and monks forsaken the true practice .
Yes, and the prevailing Indic soul-centric puthujjana-ism worked its way back in, and helped to absorb the Buddha into the Hindu pantheon.

I can only assume that the lands where Buddhism survived in did not have as strong local religious traditions prior, but I've not looked into it.

Metta,
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Re: Reasons for the failure of the Dhamma to endure in India?

Post by cappuccino »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:01 pm Why?
Everyone who could benefit did benefit


Then no one was inclined toward it


Hence it faded away…
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SDC
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Re: Reasons for the failure of the Dhamma to endure in India?

Post by SDC »

The same reason the reclusive tradition broke down way back then: the perversion of perception and sensual pleasures.

Snp 2.7 tells the tale.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: Reasons for the failure of the Dhamma to endure in India?

Post by DNS »

See also, this previous topic:
viewtopic.php?t=40698
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Re: Reasons for the failure of the Dhamma to endure in India?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Well it did, for a long time.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Reasons for the failure of the Dhamma to endure in India?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:01 pm The supreme ultimate teaching for liberation, the greatest gift to mankind and yet only a paltry 500 years in the land of it's discovery.

Why?

I know there are some historical reasons like war but are there also cultural and metaphysical reasons why the Dhamma ceased there?
"Life is suffering" is a depressing teaching?
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Re: Reasons for the failure of the Dhamma to endure in India?

Post by DNS »

1. This Dhamma is for one who wants little, not for one who wants much (appicchassāyaṃ dhammo, nāyaṃ dhammo mahicchassa).

2. This Dhamma is for the contented, not for the discontented (santuṭṭhassāyaṃ dhammo, nāyaṃ dhammo asantuṭṭhassa).

3. This Dhamma is for the reclusive, not for one fond of society (pavivittassāyaṃ dhammo, nāyaṃ dhammo saṅgaṇikārāmassa).

4. This Dhamma is for the energetic, not for the lazy (āraddhavīriyassāyaṃ dhammo, nāyaṃ dhammo kusītassa).

5. This Dhamma is for one with well-established mindfulness, not for one of confused mindfulness (upaṭṭhitassatissāyaṃ dhammo, nāyaṃ dhammo muṭṭhassatissa).

6. This Dhamma is for the composed, not for the uncomposed (samāhitassāyaṃ dhammo, nāyaṃ dhammo asamāhitassa).

7. This Dhamma is for the wise, not for the unwise (paññavato ayaṃ dhammo, nāyaṃ dhammo duppaññassa).

8. This Dhamma is for one who is free from impediments, not for one who delights in impediments (nippapañcārāmassāyaṃ dhammo nippapañcaratino, nāyaṃ dhammo papañcārāmassa papañcaratino).

(Anguttara Nikaya iv. 227)

TLDR; The Dhamma is hard, difficult, not simply reciting some prayers, mantras and going to heaven for an eternity of endless pizzas and cappuccinos.
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Re: Reasons for the failure of the Dhamma to endure in India?

Post by SarathW »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:01 pm The supreme ultimate teaching for liberation, the greatest gift to mankind and yet only a paltry 500 years in the land of it's discovery.

Why?

I know there are some historical reasons like war but are there also cultural and metaphysical reasons why the Dhamma ceased there?
It is important to note that not only in India but also in Burma, Buddhism disappeared several times.
However, it was reinstated in both countries with the help of each other.
In India, Buddhism was absorbed into Hinduism.
Even nowadays many Indian Hindu Buddhists are just the same as many Sri Lankan Buddhists but they don't know that.
Hindu rituals are still appealing to Sri Lankan Buddhists so monks have a Kovil (Hindu temple) inside the Buddhist temple.
Some Christian churches try to have Buddhist temples inside the church to attract Buddhist people.

So it is the survival of the fittest.

The following video is about the Kovil in the Buddhist temple of the infamous monk Ven. Samantha Badra.
However, I suggest you visit this place if you go to Sri Lanka and make up your own mind.

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Re: Reasons for the failure of the Dhamma to endure in India?

Post by SteRo »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:01 pm The supreme ultimate teaching for liberation, the greatest gift to mankind and yet only a paltry 500 years in the land of it's discovery.

Why?

I know there are some historical reasons like war but are there also cultural and metaphysical reasons why the Dhamma ceased there?
I think the law of "survival of the fittest" is universal and does apply to religions and philosophies and political systems and cultures, too.
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Re: Reasons for the failure of the Dhamma to endure in India?

Post by confusedlayman »

Because no one thought what really happens after death?
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Re: Reasons for the failure of the Dhamma to endure in India?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Cause_and_Effect wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:01 pm The supreme ultimate teaching for liberation, the greatest gift to mankind and yet only a paltry 500 years in the land of it's discovery.

Why?

I know there are some historical reasons like war but are there also cultural and metaphysical reasons why the Dhamma ceased there?
It died out around sometime past the 1200s, so more than 500 years, but yes, it disappears entirely in India due to the aggression of its foes, Hindu and Muslim, and its commitment to nonviolence. It was almost crushed by Dàoism and Confucianism on various separate occasions in East Asia, and was nearly crushed by State Shintō in Japan in the lead-up to WWII. It's been much-maligned on this earth.
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Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
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Re: Reasons for the failure of the Dhamma to endure in India?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Because many people found the "life is suffering" message unappealing?
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Re: Reasons for the failure of the Dhamma to endure in India?

Post by Coëmgenu »

By this time, Buddhism has developed many "Life can be awesome!" doctrines to complete with Hinduism. We're going into the 1100s here, after all. This is the Era of High Tantric Syncretism, the period of the Kālacakratantra and its elaborations, with almost no Śrāvakas left on the subcontinent.

I think the belief that "this is the degenerate age" and that Śākyamuni's dispensation is over was more of a nail in the coffin.

"Really? Well, the Dharma of the Vedas never fades!"

When Buddhists themselves think their own religion has lapsed in efficacy, that's a huge demoralization of lay followers. Only in a very isolated nation like Japan can "mappō" doctrines flourish to the extent where they can generate a whole movement of "New Kamakura schools," all united in their conviction that this is mappō, the age where Śākyamunis instruction is no longer possible to be followed, where the path of gradual accumulation is dead and impossible.
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 12:54 pm Because many people found the "life is suffering" message unappealing?
Being an ancient person was much more brutal and nasty than growing up with pizza delivery available near you. I think that "Life is suffering" was part of Buddhism's appeal, because it was seen as more rational, more realistic. That's just my opinion, the same as the above. I mean, they didn't even have penicillin in ancient India. People were dying all the time for simple things and no one understood why or how, really. Germ theory would be science fiction to them.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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