Dhammas, Truth and Reality

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10168
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 5:18 pm
mjaviem wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:23 pm To suffer, you only need the birth of you, even if born without a body. The only way to be born is by existing, even if existing without a body. The only way of existing is by clinging, even if there is no body clinging.
Right but where are the "you" ? What are the "you" ? Please be specific and plain . :thanks:
"My body" is an obvious example of "you". Much suffering results from this assumption.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
cappuccino
Posts: 12879
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2016 1:45 am
Contact:

Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by cappuccino »

mjaviem wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:23 pm The only way of existing is by clinging …
"Yes, friends. As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death."

"Don't say that, friend Yamaka. Don't misrepresent the Blessed One. It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One, for the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'"

Yamaka Sutta
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 2302
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by mjaviem »

cappuccino wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:36 pm ... for the Blessed One would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'"...
Yes. :goodpost: It's wrong to understand it as annhilation.Thanks.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
User avatar
equilibrium
Posts: 522
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:07 am

Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by equilibrium »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:01 am This has come up in another thread, and i'd like to discuss it. What does this sutta mean to you?

“Mendicants, these four things are real, not unreal, not otherwise. What four? ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’ … These four things are real, not unreal, not otherwise. That’s why you should practice meditation …” - SN 56.20
These are the 4 noble truths…..4NT.

The key word here is “real”…..meaning exactly that.

It is directly experienced…..so to realise these 4 noble truths…..which were never ever realised before until the moment of realisation.

By this experienced, it confirms the breakthrough of ignorance.

Nibbana…..is experienced and confirms one has done what needs to be done…..the escape from the cycle of samsara….birth and death.

The above is also known as knowledge and vision…..insight.

Breaking through samsara which transcends suffering…..and reaching the unborn…..the unconditioned.
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by asahi »

mjaviem wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 6:20 pm Which–which what? "You" is a delusion, it's not possible to say the "you" is here or there or anywhere. Not possible to say "this is the you" either. "You" is simply a consequence of clinging. You become due to clinging. I'm sorry I can't make myself more clear. Perhaps you can expando on your question and your current understanding?
Take yourself for example , as soon as your physical body were born into this world , at which period of times that "clinging" & "you" starts manifesting that came to your notice or aware of ?
No bashing No gossiping
User avatar
mjaviem
Posts: 2302
Joined: Wed Dec 16, 2020 5:06 pm

Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by mjaviem »

asahi wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 10:51 pm Take yourself for example , as soon as your physical body were born into this world , at which period of times that "clinging" & "you" starts manifesting that came to your notice or aware of ?
Oh, it's very personal that question... perhaps when I wanted good qualifications in the first year of elementary? Or perhaps when I discovered that I was a handsome kid by staring at the mirror for a while. And for sure when I was convinced that I deserved a good future because it was me we were talking about, right?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by asahi »

mjaviem wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 11:15 pm Oh, it's very personal that question... perhaps when I wanted good qualifications in the first year of elementary? Or perhaps when I discovered that I was a handsome kid by staring at the mirror for a while. And for sure when I was convinced that I deserved a good future because it was me we were talking about, right?
Or maybe it could be after you have gone into reading alot about self and no self or not self and begins to give rise to question and thinking of the "you"/"self" ? 🤩
No bashing No gossiping
pegembara
Posts: 3465
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by pegembara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:01 am This has come up in another thread, and i'd like to discuss it. What does this sutta mean to you?

“Mendicants, these four things are real, not unreal, not otherwise. What four? ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’ … These four things are real, not unreal, not otherwise. That’s why you should practice meditation …” - SN 56.20
Now, why should you practice meditation?
Is it because when you are all caught up in the world (aka the "Matrix") there is suffering and the possibility of putting suffering to an end comes from the realization through meditation that "the real does not die, the unreal never lived".?
Does the statement still apply if one has broken out of the "Matrix"?
[The Buddha:]
Always mindful, Mogharaja,
regard the world as
empty,
having removed any view
in terms of self.
This way
one is above and beyond death.

One who regards the world
in this way
isn't seen by Death's King.

We are such stuff as dreams are made on, and our little life is rounded with a sleep.
William Shakespeare, The Tempest
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
auto
Posts: 4583
Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by auto »

Interesting, it seem that the conceptions are about what can be known and what not.
The misconceptions aren't random here.
Whether cosmos is eternal or finite are misconceptions arising from whether the purified mind is released from the 5 senses or not.
soul is same with the body or not comes from whether you are knowing with the wisdom eye or not
whether realized one exist or not depends on have you seen ariya and then trained in their teachings or not.
https://suttacentral.net/sn33.1/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“What is the cause, Master Gotama, what is the reason why these various misconceptions arise in the world? That is:
“ko nu kho, bho gotama, hetu, ko paccayo, yānimāni anekavihitāni diṭṭhigatāni loke uppajjanti—Variant: yānimāni → yānīmāni (sya2ed); yenimāni (?)
the cosmos is eternal, or not eternal, or finite, or infinite; the soul and the body are the same thing, or they are different things; after death, a Realized One exists, or doesn’t exist, or both exists and doesn’t exist, or neither exists nor doesn’t exist.”
sassato lokoti vā, asassato lokoti vā, antavā lokoti vā, anantavā lokoti vā, taṁ jīvaṁ taṁ sarīranti vā, aññaṁ jīvaṁ aññaṁ sarīranti vā, hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti vā, na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti vā, hoti ca na ca hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti vā, neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇāti vā”ti?
here is the 4 noble truths connection with khandhas,
https://suttacentral.net/sn33.1/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “Vaccha, it is because of not knowing form, its origin, its cessation, and the practice that leads to its cessation
“Rūpe kho, vaccha, aññāṇā, rūpasamudaye aññāṇā, rūpanirodhe aññāṇā, rūpanirodhagāminiyā paṭipadāya aññāṇā;
if khandha is known with the eye of wisdom, then the form is seen not self - the dictionary meaning of añña
añña - opposed to oneself.
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/a/a%C3%B1%C3%B1a/ wrote:PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Añña,(pron.) [Vedic anya,with compar. suff. ya; Goth. anpar; Ohg. andar; formation with n analagous to those with l in Gr. a)λlos (a)λjos),Lat. alius (cp. alter),Goth. aljis Ags. elles = E. else. From demonstr. base *eno,see na1 and cp. a3] another etc. -- A. By itself:1. other,not the same,different,another,somebody else (opp. oneself)
from abhidhamma can know that the ultimate thing has qualities in themselves.
Tim Mon wrote:Dhàtu in Pàëi means that which carries its own characteristics
marks or attributes. Element is the closest equivalent for dhàtu.
Therefore i think the mundane(loka, worldly) is that the qualities are conceptional, unless viewed with the wisdom eye(paññācakkhunā mn43), then it is real.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by Sam Vara »

mikenz66 wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:20 am
robertk wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:19 am The sutta last line reads:

Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, ‘idaṁ dukkhan’ti yogo karaṇīyo …pe… ‘ayaṁ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yogo karaṇīyo”ti.

Sujato translation has "That’s why you should practice meditation …” :o

Bodhi (accurately): Therefore, bhikkhu, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’… An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.
Though some of the wording is questionable, do note that Bhikkhu Sujato abbreviates that paragraph, indicated by the ... since it is repeated in previous suttas.

See: https://suttacentral.net/sn56.1
Bodhi: “Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the origin of suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the cessation of suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’”

Sujato: That’s why you should practice meditation to understand: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the origin of suffering’ … ‘This is the cessation of suffering’ … ‘This is the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering’.”

Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, ‘idaṁ dukkhan’ti yogo karaṇīyo, ‘ayaṁ dukkhasamudayo’ti yogo karaṇīyo, ‘ayaṁ dukkhanirodho’ti yogo karaṇīyo, ‘ayaṁ dukkhanirodhagāminī paṭipadā’ti yogo karaṇīyo”ti.
:heart:
Mike
If you track the abbreviation back to its original unabbreviated form, I think it occurs in SN 56.1. It says there "An exertion (yogo) should be made: 'This is suffering'. An exertion should be made: 'This is the origin of suffering'...etc" There is, as far as I can see, nothing that indicates what type of exertion is to be made; no second verb is in there. This is resolved by Bikkhu Bodhi slipping in "to understand" - an exertion is to be made to understand that particular truth, which makes perfect sense.

Sujato, however, goes for the "meditation" angle because (as per the commentary here, which BB acknowledges, but for once does not follow) that SN 56.1 is the Samadhisutta, and recommends that a bhikkhu develops a concentrated mind to understand things as they really are. And the things which the concentrated mind understands are the Four Noble Truths.

I don't know whether that means that the 4NT are impossible to understand without a concentrated mind, but it does throw light on the huge amount of futile and rancorous argument that takes place about the 4NT, none of it having much to do with the qualities of samadhi as I understand them. And also with my teacher's advice: "Don't bother trying to understand the Four Noble Truths - you won't be able to. Just do the meditation...".
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19941
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by mikenz66 »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:28 pm If you track the abbreviation back to its original unabbreviated form, I think it occurs in SN 56.1. ...
Thanks for the useful clarification. It is examples like this that I think it really show the usefulness of having Bhikkhu Sujato's translations beside Bhikkhu Bodhi's. It's not about whether his word choices are better or worse than Bhikkhu Bodhi's (they both have their strengths and weaknesses, as both readily admit) but that they are different enough to make us query exactly what is being pointed to, and hence improve our understanding of the texts.

:heart:
Mike
User avatar
Johann
Posts: 619
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Dhammas, Truth and Reality

Post by Johann »

To make an effort, yoga, means right effort and turn to proper attention and the task behind each of the truth. No use of seeking refuge in common householder-equanimity.
...And also with my teacher's advice: "Don't bother trying to understand the Four Noble Truths - you won't be able to. Just do the meditation...".
And such teacher is good to be left quickly, if such sayings, good householders.
Post Reply