sense bases disappear ?

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mikenz66
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:58 am Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 12:50 am External blah, blah, blah. These are just excuses to demean and belittle the Dhamma.
Absolute nonsense. I am pointing back to the Dhamma - i.e. the doctrine and the discipline. To treasure and value something as worth referring back to, is the complete opposite of demeaning and belittling it.

You having aversion to the fulfilment of the Buddha's dying wish and instruction of The Four Great References is your vedana to manage. It is not my fault your favoured teachers and teachings are not there in the discourses, so for the benefit of this conversation, please try to manage the situation in a way that doesn't involve disruptive meta-discussion, including in-topic complaints about the existence of discussions that don't suit your preferences.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
If you could explain how you came to your conclusion, rather than simply playing the rather tired "I follow the Dhamma" card (which may give the mistaken impression that others are not) it might be worth discussing.

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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:39 am If you could explain how you came to your conclusion, rather than simply playing the rather tired "I follow the Dhamma" card (which may give the mistaken impression that others are not) it might be worth discussing.
Sure, I'll do that when I get home since you ask, but to be clear, I'm saying I follow the practice of the Four Great References, which continually and consistently point back to the Buddha's Dhamma. That practice, that duty if you will, says nothing about what others do or do not do. Nor does it deserve to be derided or misrepresented, as Coëmgenu did above. Bhikkhu Pesala promotes the Four Great References here at this forum and I do not see Coëmgenu accusing him of "demeaning and belittling the Dhamma" by doing so.

UPDATE: I'm home now, and have decided that my correspondence with Ceisiwr on page 56 of this topic, is adequate and sufficient as a response, especially as it pertains to the inherent limitations of the puthujjana world view. I am hesitant to speak about it despite it being an integral part of the Buddha's teaching, because people often perceive it as an insult when the world puthujjana is mentioned, or take it as some kind of "claim", rather than as a distinction which is to be understood (per MN1), and raising it is invariably (and of course ironically) met with disruptive ad-hominem argumentation.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by robertk »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:54 am Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:39 am If you could explain how you came to your conclusion, rather than simply playing the rather tired "I follow the Dhamma" card (which may give the mistaken impression that others are not) it might be worth discussing.
Sure, I'll do that when I get home since you ask, but to be clear, I'm saying I follow the practice of the Four Great References, which continually and consistently point back to the Buddha's Dhamma. That practice, that duty if you will, says nothing about what others do or do not do. Nor does it deserve to be derided or misrepresented, as Coëmgenu did above. Bhikkhu Pesala promotes the Four Great References here at this forum and I do not see Coëmgenu accusing him of "demeaning and belittling the Dhamma" by doing so.

[
to clafity the 4 great references:
From the Commentary to the Parinibbana Sutta:4 great references
“But in the list [of four things] beginning with sutta, sutta means the three baskets [Suttanta, Vinaya, Abhidhamma] which the three Councils recited.

Accordance with sutta’ means legitimate by being in accord [with what is explicitly legitimate].

The word of a teacher’ means the commentary.

One’s own opinion’ means one’s own illumination through grasping an analogy or one’s consequent understanding.

Of these, sutta should not be rejected, for he who rejects that rejects the Buddha himself. If what is legitimate by being in accord agrees with the sutta, it should be accepted, but otherwise not. If the word of a teacher agrees with the sutta, it should be accepted, but otherwise not.

One’s own opinion is weakest of all, but if it agrees with the sutta, it should be accepted, but otherwise not.

The three Councils’ are the one of five hundred monks, the one of seven hundred, the one of a thousand. Only a sutta transmitted through them is authoritative; any other is a contemptible sutta, not to be accepted. Even though words and syllables appear in the latter, they should be known as ones which do not appear in the Sutta, are not found in the Vinaya.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Robert,

So a sect tells us that what the Buddha really meant was that their sectarian creations (e.g. Abhidhamma Pitaka) which were created centuries after the Buddha, and that the Buddha had never heard of, is what the Buddha really meant should be referred to.

Talk about "begging the question"! Does anyone fall for this totally transparent and self-serving elevation of sectarian doctrine?

I guess they do? :shrug:

And here we are.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 1:54 am UPDATE: I'm home now, and have decided that my correspondence with Ceisiwr on page 56 of this topic, is adequate and sufficient as a response, especially as it pertains to the inherent limitations of the puthujjana world view. I am hesitant to speak about it despite it being an integral part of the Buddha's teaching, because people often perceive it as an insult when the world puthujjana is mentioned, or take it as some kind of "claim", rather than as a distinction which is to be understood (per MN1), and raising it is invariably (and of course ironically) met with disruptive ad-hominem argumentation.
Sorry, but I don't see anything on my page 56 about my question about why a dependent-origination model that may span multiple lives would require two lives to stop. Obviously the people who use that model don't see it that way. I can only conclude that your issue comes from trying to mix your particular "timeless" model with a "timeful" model such as the Classical Theravada model, which may well lead to a contradiction.

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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:24 am Sorry, but I don't see anything on my page 56 about my question about why a dependent-origination model that may span multiple lives would require two lives to stop. Obviously the people who use that model don't see it that way. I can only conclude that your issue comes from trying to mix your particular "timeless" model with a "timeful" model such as the Classical Theravada model, which may well lead to a contradiction.
Oh, OK, I thought you were talking about something else. Thanks for clarifying.

My point (and Alex's by the look of it) is that idappaccayatā is symmetrical.

When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

Therefore "that" which arises, must be "that" which ceases.

The "three lifetime model" takes it upon itself to stretch the following two nidana out across lifetimes.

- From the arising of (past-life) sankharas, comes the arising of (rebirth-linking) consciousness.
- From the arising of (current-life) bhava, comes the arising of (future life) jati.

Thus, if it took "two lives" to get from avijja to jarāmaraṇa... then to be symmetrical, the cessation of avijja would take "two more lives" to trickle through the remaining nidanas to the cessation of jarāmaraṇa.

Except, that's not how it works, is it? No one says it takes "two more lifetimes" to cease... yet, the model when artificially pegged out over multiple lifetimes, takes "two more lifetimes" for it to arise. Thus, it is asymmetrical, and at odds with the symmetry of idappaccayatā.

Instead of recognising and acknowledging this, people try to rationalise the asymmetry of their sectarian presentations, and this leads to all manner of additional contortions taking place in order to juggle parallel and simultaneous "life 1's", "life 2's" and "life 3's" and you're left with something that bears no resemblance whatsoever to the Buddha's actual presentations of paticcasamuppada.

At its most conceptually proliferated, you end up with something like this tangled mess of papañca-sanna-sankha spaghetti...

mogokwh3.jpg

Me pointing this out initially obviously offended your proclivities, such that you were overwhelmed by fabricated perceptions of "noise and bluster". However, it was nothing more than a straightforward, matter-of-fact observation. It would be good to be able to discuss the Dhamma without people superimposing their feelings and emotional reactions onto the subjects at hand.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Spiny Norman »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:21 am

- From the arising of (past-life) sankharas, comes the arising of (rebirth-linking) consciousness.
- From the arising of (current-life) bhava, comes the arising of (future life)


mogokwh3.jpg
Yes, the 3-lives interpretation is a muddle, and doesn't bear much resemblance to SN12.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

retrofuturist wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 6:21 am .....
Hi retrofuturist ,

Did you say the Buddha only speaks of five sense faculty not including the mind faculty ? And the training is about how one should see , hear etc etc ?

eye faculty... ability of seeing
ear … ability of hearing
nose … ability of smelling
tongue … ability of tasting
body … ability of tangibility (?)

mind faculty .... ability of (thinking ?)
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
asahi wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:07 am And the training is about how one should see , hear etc etc ?
No.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by PeterC86 »

!!!!!!!

Birth is always cognized. The event of a baby coming out of the womb is cognized. If this event is not cognized, we cannot speak of birth. This cannot be disputed.

Only through the mental disability to be aware of one's own mind, one doesn't understand this.

Such a mental disability, in combination with seeing life as intrinsically suffering, due to viewing life, as such, being based upon ignorance, will lead to life-long dejection, from which death is seen as a release.

This is a serious mental issue, which leads to severe problems in coping with life. An issue which I cannot ignore by not mentioning this, aside from the 'what is the buddhadhamma discussion'. This post is therefore a warning for anyone who is inclined to follow such a view. This is not about who or what is right or wrong, this is a matter of mental health.

So whether I am violating ToS or not, I feel obliged to share this.

!!!!!!!
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Sam Vara »

PeterC86 wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 10:09 am !!!!!!!

Birth is always cognized. The event of a baby coming out of the womb is cognized. If this event is not cognized, we cannot speak of birth. This cannot be disputed.

Only through the mental disability to be aware of one's own mind, one doesn't understand this.

Such a mental disability, in combination with seeing life as intrinsically suffering, due to viewing life, as such, being based upon ignorance, will lead to life-long dejection, from which death is seen as a release.

This is a serious mental issue, which leads to severe problems in coping with life. An issue which I cannot ignore by not mentioning this, aside from the 'what is the buddhadhamma discussion'. This post is therefore a warning for anyone who is inclined to follow such a view. This is not about who or what is right or wrong, this is a matter of mental health.

So whether I am violating ToS or not, I feel obliged to share this.

!!!!!!!
Calm down a bit, Peter. This is about how language is being used, or what commonly-understood features of our life are meant by Pali terms. Nobody is mentally disabled or suffering from what we usually mean by poor mental health. :meditate:
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

At the end of the day, it's just not sensible to say that the Theravādins ought to believe that it takes 2 or 3 lives to be liberated. That's not how they believe DO works, and anyone arguing that this is a logical extension of their thought should know that they are wrong. Using a superficial, simplified, and rhetorically lobotomized version of "3-lives" DO, and then saying "Look at what this foolish sect replaced the Dhamma with" is a mere act of celebrating one's own view.

Also, there is no need for awkward human notions of "the elegance of symmetry" in DO. "Life 2" is "this life." "Life 2" is always "this life." If you wonder "which life" DO is referring to, it's "this life." From the POV of a future life, then this is "Life 1." From the POV of the past, then this is "Life 3," but practically speaking, it is in considering this as "Life 2" that liberation is found.

The present is not the future, and it is not the past. Once the future is the present, it's no longer the future.

Everyone who is not an Arhat or otherwise liberated is laying the groundwork for "the next life" in the "here and now." Everyone is experiencing the results of past laid groundworks, i.e. "the past life," in the "here and now." Everyone is also aging and dying, i.e. what will happen in "the next life," in the "here and now." All three so-called "lives" are in the present, but it is through the paradigm of "stopping Life 3" that we stop this, according to traditional Theravada insofar that I understand it.

People have the power to be liberated in the "here and now," all without naïve notions about symmetry.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

Another thing that is vital, if people want to actually understand the traditional exegesis and not simply dance upon what they think its grave to be, is replacing "Life 3" with jāti and jarāmaraṇa, replacing "Life 2" with phassa and the like, etc. This "3-lives" framing (by which I refer to the act of referring to the traditional understanding of DO as over "three lives") has something of the truth in it, but is ultimately a simplification that polemicists are attacking on very tenuous grounds. It doesn't take "3 (sequential) lives" for something to be dependently originated, or for there to be liberation. Don't fetishize the "3." The 3 are the three times, ultimately: past, present, future. In the present, you carry the burden from the past, and lay seeds for the future, but the future never comes. Why? Once it's "here," "here" is the present, not the future.

There is always more jāti and jarāmaraṇa in the future, unless it is stopped via Bodhi. You are always, in the present, under the condition of having been born and thus are subject to aging and death. You are always, in the present, to be faced with more of this jāti and jarāmaraṇa in the future. The 3-lives so-called "interpretation" actually shows us how all of the links are active and operating in the present, rather than stretching them over three sequential lives with nidānas assigned to each. To frame it in such a way as just described is to misrepresent it, whether accidentally out of ignorance concerning it or purposely out of disdain for it.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Sat Aug 20, 2022 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by asahi »

If jati is identity , that is an repetition of upadana link .
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Re: sense bases disappear ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

The 12-links formula is unambiguously an ancient tract that was originally written on the subject of the conception and development of the embryo, as a sequence of stages prior to birth; in examining the primary source text, this is as blatant today as it was over two thousand years ago, despite some very interesting misinterpretations that have arisen in the centuries in-between [...] In the Mahānidāna [sutta]’s brief gloss on the term nāmarūpa [...] we have a very explicit reminder that the subject-matter being described in this sequence of stages is the development of the embryo [...] it is indisputably clear that we are reading about something that may (or may not) enter into (okkamissatha) the mother’s womb (mātukucchismiŋ) [...] The passage is wildly incongruent with attempts of many other interpreters to render the whole doctrine in more abstract terms (variously psychological or metaphysical)
(Dr. Eisel Mazard, Unpopular facts about one of Buddhist philosophy’s most popular doctrines)

Link here for full article:

https://www.newmandala.org/unpopular-fa ... doctrines/

This author argues that "this life" is always "Life 3." He explicitly argues against the notion of "spreading out" DO over three lives, but given that we do not remember being an embryo or being a foetus, it is functionally the same in the end, oddly enough. This is another exegesis, a different form of modernism than those discussed previously, and yet it finds itself in-line with certain key elements of Vaibhāṣika and even Theravādin exegesis. The difference is in his placing of things like contact and clinging in the womb.

My presentation here, as I've said before, is based on Madhyamaka and Vaibhāṣika. It's possible that the Theravādins do literally stretch out DO over three lives. If such is the case, than their understanding is either a misunderstood descendent or a comparatively more primitive parallel-evolution out of the larger tradition of Buddhic exegesis that other Samghas preserved more accurately, IMO.

It's not traditional, what Dr. Mazard lays out, but it's so much more level-headed than the various other modernist exegeses, where senses bases are not sense bases and where birth is not birth and death is not death.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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