Chakra and qualities

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Cause_and_Effect
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Re: Chakra and qualities

Post by Cause_and_Effect »

Coëmgenu wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 7:24 am
Cause_and_Effect wrote: Mon Aug 01, 2022 5:45 am
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 9:18 pm The term “subtle body” does not have a true correlate in Sanskrit or Tibetan.
Luckily it exists in the Pali Canon as an equivalent, the breath body or breath energy body - "body among the bodies" in anapanasati sutta.
Nope. "Body" in the nominative followed by "body" in the locative does not mean "subtle body." The word does not exist in the Pāli Canon. It also doesn't exist in the non-Theravādin EBTs, the Mahāyāna sūtras, or the Tantras.
It's equivalent in many ways and very easy to see how terms like 'subtle body' could have arisen.
It's not something that simple analysis of Pali grammar is going to reveal, it's the context of the entire sutta, the practice itself and experience, and the many jhana similes.

This is essentially the problem with the hardline pseudoacademic discourse you are persuing that often misses the wood for the trees.
"Therein monks, that Dimension should be known wherein the eye ceases and the perception of forms fades away...the ear... the nose...the tongue... the body ceases and the perception of touch fades away...

That Dimension should be known wherein mentality ceases and the perception of mind-objects fades away.
That Dimension should be known; that Dimension should be known."


(S. IV. 98) - The Dimension beyond the All
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Chakra and qualities

Post by Coëmgenu »

What I've been rejecting, based on my exposure to esoteric Buddhism and also quoting a Tāntrika off the Internet, is an immaterial subtle body that is parallel to the physical mundane body. The "kāya kāye," so-to-speak, is not an immaterial subtle or astral body. It is the "body" that is comprised of the internal winds, which are physical.

An "astral body" is closer to a manomayakāya than to the "body in the body." Now we're talking about "subtle" bodies. But cakras and the discourse that surrounds them in traditional literature that addresses them does not particularly apply to this body more-so than the physical body.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Chakra and qualities

Post by Coëmgenu »

Do you know what? There're some tendencies towards things like a subtle body, perhaps, in Theravāda. I have to admit where things are legitimately ambiguous. According to various Mahāyānika models, mindfulness of the breath can lead one all the way to super-ultra-fancy enlightenment, the enlightenment of a Samyaksaṃbuddha which is considered superior to Arhatva.

I don't know how far mindfulness of the breath takes you according to Theravāda, but I do know that, in Theravāda, the breath-body, at one point, becomes replaced by a mentalized nimitta. So maybe the immaterial mentalized body of air that replaces the physical body with its physical sensations is an immaterial subtle body. I'm not an expert on Theravāda though.

Also, formless devas and Āryabodhisattvas and Tathāgatas, according to (medieval) reckonings that I follow, are utterly bodiless. If we were to speak of them with "a body" for the sake of provisional convenience, it would be an immaterial subtle body. So please don't think that I can't see two sides of something and don't read too much into my insistence that the "body in the body" in breath-mindfulness is physical. I was taught dhyāna with various bodily senses active. In so-called "absorbed" mentalized dhyānas, the "body" that is pervaded could well be a subtle or astral body.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Jim_Smith
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Re: Chakra and qualities

Post by Jim_Smith »

maniture_85 wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 1:22 am I'm sorry if it's not the right section, but i'm new and ignorant about this kind of theme ( Chakra ).
Is it true that, through practicing concentration on a specific chakra, it can produce, explicate, make manifest ( real ), a set of specific qualities or virtues?
Is it true the opposite which is, through practicing with one's own mind, speech, action, one or more set of specific qualities or virtues, it can regulate and somehow "improve", or balance, or "open", one's specific chakra?
In my experience the chakras are places in the body where you feel physical sensations accompanying strong emotions: a lump in the throat, a sinking feeling in the gut, shortness of breath, rapid heartbeat, tension headaches, etc.

If you want to learn to give up attachments and aversions that are intertwined with emotions it helps to be aware of how those emotions effect the mind and body. One way to gain this awareness is to notice the sensations in your body that accompany emotions - in some cases this would mean meditating on the sensations in the chakras.

You can observe for yourself which emotions you feel in which chakras. I think it is common to feel love in the heart chakra, sadness can cause a lump in the throat etc..
Last edited by Jim_Smith on Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Chakra and qualities

Post by Coëmgenu »

Jim_Smith wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 7:47 amI think it is common to feel love in the heart chakra, sadness can cause a lump in the throat etc..
IMO, understanding and considering this common human experience is vital to understanding medieval thought about the cakras, as well as the non-āyurvedic ancient thought that informs the medieval thought. That being said, obviously I also have a very particular notion of "cakras," as evidenced by this thread. Cause_and_Effect hit the nail on the head when he accused me of priviledging certain narratives over others. I am certainly priveledging a certain narrative, but one that I find to be a) underrepresented, b) more historically-informed, and c) non-orientalist, non-theosophist, and non-New Age. I'm actually giving two narratives that are mutually contradictory: first the narrative of Japanese esoterica and secondly a secondhand narrative of Tibetan Vajrayāna from a highly-respected source.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
auto
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Re: Chakra and qualities

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 3:37 pm The goals of the EBT and of Tantra are different. In the EBT Arahantship is the goal. In tantra becoming a bodhisattva and then a Buddha is the goal.
i wanted to find this Sutta,
Sariputta says:
https://suttacentral.net/sn47.12/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “Sir, though I don’t comprehend the minds of Buddhas past, future, and present,
still I understand this by inference from the teaching.
..
‘Whatever sizable creatures enter or leave the citadel, all of them do so via this gate.’

In the same way, I understand this by inference from the teaching:
‘All the perfected ones, fully awakened Buddhas—whether past, future, or present—give up the five hindrances, corruptions of the heart that weaken wisdom. Their mind is firmly established in the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. They correctly develop the seven awakening factors. And they wake up to the supreme perfect awakening.’”
supreme perfect awakening - anuttaraṁ sammāsambodhiṁ
fully awakened buddha - sammāsambuddhā

The hinayana arhant is the ebt equivalent of someone who has given up sakkaya ditthi. Hence there is more to do.
auto
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Re: Chakra and qualities

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:34 pm Chakras have nothing to do with the Dhamma.
bumping it to show you the problem you create. Now, every time you write something, i remember this thing you said. I haven't see you say anything what would forgive this.
Maybe now you have changed your view you want to clarify?
auto
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Re: Chakra and qualities

Post by auto »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:49 pm Vairocana governs the liver. The eye is the lord of the liver. Akṣobhya governs the lungs. The nose is the lord of the lungs. Ratnasaṃbhava governs the heart. The tongue is the lord of the heart. Amitāyur governs the kidneys. The ear is the lord of the kidneys. Amoghasiddhi governs the spleen. The mouth is the lord of the spleen.

The liver, the lungs, the heart, the kidneys, and the spleen: five cakras. More to come.
something like this definition?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upadhi wrote:It can also be viewed as a disguise or vehicle for true reality, both defining something and limiting it. For example, the body of a man or animal is the upādhi of its true self. Another example is that the true self, Brahman (Sanskrit: ब्रह्म) is hidden in a living being, jiva (Sanskrit: जीव) by the upādhi of the mind, Antahkarana (Sanskrit: अंतःकरण) and the creator God, Īshvara (Sanskrit: ईश्वर) by the upādhi of Māyā (Sanskrit: माया) an appearance which is not what it seems. Upādhi is the condition of body and mind obscuring the true self which Indian schools of thought seek to remove for the attainment of moksha, realisation of the true self.[2]
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Crazy cloud
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Re: Chakra and qualities

Post by Crazy cloud »

asahi wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 4:26 am
maniture_85 wrote: Sat Jul 09, 2022 1:22 am I'm sorry if it's not the right section, but i'm new and ignorant about this kind of theme ( Chakra ).
Is it true that, through practicing concentration on a specific chakra, it can produce, explicate, make manifest ( real ), a set of specific qualities or virtues?
Is it true the opposite which is, through practicing with one's own mind, speech, action, one or more set of specific qualities or virtues, it can regulate and somehow "improve", or balance, or "open", one's specific chakra?
Chakras concept can be found in hinduism , taiosm , some thailand buddhism , some mahayana buddhism and tibetan buddhism . But it does not lead to liberation .
What leads to liberation will be known when you "get it", then you can say for "sure" something about your liberation, but that doesn't mean you know anything about me! If you do, then you are either enlightened or have some supernormal talents working for you.

To the question itself: Gain all information that's available, and take notice of those saying "You should get a teacher!"

Get a teacher!!

Good luck! :anjali:
If you didn't care
What happened to me
And I didn't care for you

We would zig-zag our way
Through the boredom and pain
Occasionally glancing up through the rain

Wondering which of the
Buggers to blame
And watching for pigs on the wing
- Roger Waters
auto
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Re: Chakra and qualities

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:44 pm
auto wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:40 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jul 31, 2022 5:33 pm No it isn’t, in its current forms. I think the Abhidhamma can add some unnecessary level of complexity. I see chakras as more of the same. It’s just not needed.
When you reject chakra, you reject everything else tied to it too. Unless you have superficial understanding of them like Ceomengu has that they are flesh only, i don't see how one could possible reject chakras when still trying to attain something from meditation/spiritual life.
I’m happy with that since virtue, sense-restraint, Jhana and awakening have nothing to do with them. Monks and nuns have been practicing the NEFP for centuries without said theory.
Sense restraint will get you access to a stream what you can pull into the body(once you can).
Any tradition will give you instructions how to concentrate. Whereas not everyone of them does start with the eyes. Eyes are the starting point of every recycle or restart.
The term in pali prolly is parimukha.
Concentration is done through the eyes into the space by using gaze in a specific way and holding it there(throughout daily activities). So you wouldn't miss when the stream occurs. If you catch the stream it enters the body and onwards you come aware of the subtle force with its symptoms.

I could guess that subtle stream is the 'chain of consciousness'(vīthi) in abhidhamma. The idea is to make such guesses is to then check from those sources the mechanics how the vīthi arises or is arrested.
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