Rupert Gethin: I place a question mark against the claims of ‘inconsistency’ of Abhidhamma and Commentaries

[analysis]

IB Horner, PALI TEXT SOCIETY, writes
"They are as closed now as is the Pali canon. No additions to their corpus or subtractions from it are to contemplated, and no commentary written in later days could be included in it.

How gigantic will it become if it was kept open !
How difficult will it become for us to extract useful passages !

[Jack19990101]

The current Commentary can keep as it is, that is fine.

I have not read The Commentary, thus I am not going to dispute its content, but rather dispute the structure of Doctrines.

What I am against - Sutta has a Single Set Closed Commentary.

No commentary is to be positioned as Only. It will risk diminishing Sutta.
It is to take in other commentaries, alternative interpretations, as same position as The Current Commentary, at least two sets in competing positions.

Otherwise, it is to have positioned The Current Commentary as Sutta.

We are criticizing alternative commentaries, on based it is against The Current Commentary. It is an unconscious punishment to have comprehended Sutta directly.
It is to uphold a ritual to understand Dhamma via The Current Commentary Only.

It would be pointless to read Sutta if one is not allowed to understand it differently than The Commentary.

Curiosity to ritualistic commentary support - do you feel the need to read Dependent origination from Sutta?
if u do, why - question from ur group.
if u don't, why - question from me.

Ultimate question - do you read Sutta more or The Commentary? What is being honored as the main src and what is being positioned as mere reference?
One answer will give u resentment to 2nd commentary.
the other answer will give u re-joy to a 2nd commentary.

[Jack19990101]

We should position ourselves, it is to keep Sutta going as long as possible, even it is to risk losing The Commentary.

[Jack19990101]

Who can recover 'afore' from 'nose tip'?

There gonna be commentaries written as long as there is Sutta.
But it is not possible to restore Sutta from Commentaries.

[analysis]

I have not read The Commentary,

Please don't offend me/ don't take this as teasing.

I could guess is already.

[Jack19990101]

Not sure u r capable of teasing me or offend me. but u can feel free to try.
I certainly have not much interest in stopping u
or interest in anything u say, except pertaining the topic below -

My interest is the structure of doctrine, is it making The Commentary the main origin of practice, and positioning sutta as reference.

[analysis]

I didn't intend to hurt you.
What I meant was "I can easily see that you have not read the commentary even before you say it. Because I have met many like you who criticize it in the beginning and change after reading it".

[Eko Care]

What I meant was "I can easily see that you have not read the commentary even before you say it. Because I have met many like you who criticize it in the beginning and change after reading it".

Good sensibility.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

If one claims the Abhidhamma and Commentaries are "inconsistent",
then we can be sure that the claimer is not intelligent at least.

That's not an argument. That's arrogance.

Be better.

Metta,
Paul.

[Ceisiwr]

If one claims the Abhidhamma and Commentaries are "inconsistent",
then we can be sure that the claimer is not intelligent at least.

The Abhidhamma is said to be only about ultimate reality, but in the Dhammasaṅgaṇī we find "long & short". In the commentarial literature "long & short" are not ultimate realities. They are conventional (being relative to each other). Is this not a case of inconsistency, perhaps not in the Abhidhamma texts, but within the tradition itself? Now from my point of view it looks like initially the compilers of the Dhammasaṅgaṇī thought that "long & short" were ultimate realities, but later tradition came to disagree with this. Interestingly the Sarvāstivāda-Vaibhāṣika do claim that long & short are ultimate realities, so it looks like the Dhammasaṅgaṇī was composed during a time when Sarvāstivāda and Theravāda were doctrinally closer, but then drifted apart as time went on. Perhaps I'm just an unintelligent fool though.

[robertk]

The Abhidhamma is said to be only about ultimate reality, .

Some do say that but I think a more accurate statement is that the Abhidhamma is thorough in its treatment of ultimate realities. It gives a detailed account of the khandhas, ayatanas, elements, truths, faculties, dependent origination and satipatthana.

In order to explain these ultimate realities sometimes concepts are used. So we have for example in the Dhammasangani sections like this "

Dependent on the four Primary Elements, there is the Corporeality which is visible, which arises with impingement, and is of various colours: dark blue, pale yellow, red, white, black, reddish brown, deep yellow, green, light green; long, short, small, large, spherical, circular, four-sided, six-sided, eight-sided, sixteen-sided [..] color of a precious stone (such as a ruby) ...

The reality is 'corporeality which is visible.

"long, short, spherical" etc are not additional elements, they are conventional descriptions to aid understanding of the diversity of visible object.

The Abhidhamma (and Commentaries) aim is to eludicate and they use concepts to aid in that.
as the Commentary to the Katthavatthu says:
The Debates Commentary p. 41, 42

[35] There is another way of putting it. The teaching of the Exalted One is of two kinds, the highest-meaning teaching consisting of the aggregates and so forth, and the popular teaching consisting of "butter jar" and so forth. The Exalted One does not indeed, overall run consistency. Hence on the mere expression "there is the person who," must not command adherence. The highest meaning has been declared by the Teacher, without transgressing the concept. So, another wise man also should not, in explaining the highest meaning, overrun a concept.>>

[justindesilva]

The Abhidhamma is said to be only about ultimate reality, .

Some do say that but I think a more accurate statement is that the Abhidhamma is thorough in its treatment of ultimate realities. It gives a detailed account of the khandhas, ayatanas, elements, truths, faculties, dependent origination and satipatthana.

In order to explain these ultimate realities sometimes concepts are used. So we have for example in the Dhammasangani sections like this "

Dependent on the four Primary Elements, there is the Corporeality which is visible, which arises with impingement, and is of various colours: dark blue, pale yellow, red, white, black, reddish brown, deep yellow, green, light green; long, short, small, large, spherical, circular, four-sided, six-sided, eight-sided, sixteen-sided [..] color of a precious stone (such as a ruby) ...

The reality is 'corporeality which is visible".
"long, short, spherical" etc are not additional elements, they are just conventional descriptions to aid understanding of the diversity of visible object.

The Abhidhamma (and Commentaries) aim is to eludicate and they use concepts to aid in that.
as the Commentary to the Katthavatthu says:
The Debates Commentary p. 41, 42

[35] There is another way of putting it. The teaching of the Exalted One is of two kinds, the highest-meaning teaching consisting of the aggregates and so forth, and the popular teaching consisting of "butter jar" and so forth. The Exalted One does not indeed, overall run consistency. Hence on the mere expression "there is the person who," must not command adherence. The highest meaning has been declared by the Teacher, without transgressing the concept. So, another wise man also should not, in explaining the highest meaning, overrun a concept.>>

In a recent discussion on damma a young but far thinking bikkhu expressed the idea that what lord budda exposed is a purifucation of contemporary wrong tachings of the existing vedas and purans . The so called brahmana at the time politicised vedas to suppress communities along with reugning kings .
Having done that along with lord buddas sangha desciples he left the desciples to extend his knowledge for a better society .
The 1st sangayana collected all buddas suttas which floated to the future . The second sangayana after nearly 200years only added the vinaya pitaka that was necessarily for the descipline of a scattered but large sangha community . It is only during the third sangayana much later the abidamma as another pitaka or text was added . No one seems to gurantee the originality of the abidamma in context with the original sutta deshana of 1st sangayana at the time of textual recording after another long period in Aluvihare in central province of sri lanka.
The only way to correct such errors is to form ones own insight (samma ditthi) with a correctly effort by self . Abidamma may be a systemasized guidance of budda damma , subject to change of views much later . There are many interpretations of the same matter depending on ones impression of understanding .Eg: Kamma been one and interpretation of anapana sati and satpattana been another .

[robertk]

No one seems to gurantee the originality of the abidamma in context with the original sutta deshana of 1st sangayana at the time of textual recording after another long period in Aluvihare in central province of sri lanka.
The only way to correct such errors is to form ones own insight (samma ditthi) with a correctly effort by self . Abidamma may be a systemasized guidance of budda damma , subject to change of views much later . There are many interpretations of the same matter depending on ones impression of understanding .Eg: Kamma been one and interpretation of anapana sati and satpattana been another .

Dear Justin
Life for all of us is brief, in the ultimate sense only one moment.
I would like you to study more about Abhidhamma and see if it relates to what is real now.
For your doubts about whether the Abhidhamma was recited at the first council see this thread:
https://classicaltheravada.org/t/abhidh ... -buddha/77

[justindesilva]

No one seems to gurantee the originality of the abidamma in context with the original sutta deshana of 1st sangayana at the time of textual recording after another long period in Aluvihare in central province of sri lanka.
The only way to correct such errors is to form ones own insight (samma ditthi) with a correctly effort by self . Abidamma may be a systemasized guidance of budda damma , subject to change of views much later . There are many interpretations of the same matter depending on ones impression of understanding .Eg: Kamma been one and interpretation of anapana sati and satpattana been another .

Dear Justin
Life for all of us is brief, in the ultimate sense only one moment.
I would like you to study more about Abhidhamma and see if it relates to what is real now.
For your doubts about whether the Abhidhamma was recited at the first council see this thread:
https://classicaltheravada.org/t/abhidh ... -buddha/77

Greetings Robert and many thanks , for your presentation . In fact in my briefing I have mentioned regarding Sariputta thero and his mention of samma ditthi , I always look upon abidamma to understand damma whether it was added later as I am bent on studying basics of whatever subject I learn. Hence to guide me I have with me the book Guide throug Abidamma pitaka written by Nyanatiloka thero who was a german resided in Galle Sri lanka. It even has an essay on Paticca samuppada . At times may be due to our ignorance we create doubts about points from sutta and abidamma as we try to understand from various interpretations of later translations . As for me ignorance of Pali is a great drawback.
If I may can I add that I understand life as a continuous reaction of energies for a manifestation of dynamic energy . This is why there is only a present always exists where as the past moment of the reaction creates the present state which continues as past to present and the future . (The reason why past becomes sunyata damma) Abidamma describes all that happens in such a continuous process of a reaction. I also trust that suffering is being part of the said reaction . I wish to be excused if I have gone off point .
With metta .

[robertk]

. Hence to guide me I have with me the book Guide throug Abidamma pitaka written by Nyanatiloka thero who was a german resided in Galle Sri lanka. It even has an essay on Paticca samuppada .

A very good book. But much more is needed.
Have a look though my website abhidhamma.org for many useful books.