Consciousness association to Nama?

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Dhammapardon
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Consciousness association to Nama?

Post by Dhammapardon »

In what way are consciousness and nama associated?
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
Dhammapardon
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Re: Consciousness association to Nama?

Post by Dhammapardon »

SN 12.67

“Name-and-form, friend Koṭṭhita, is not created by oneself, nor is it created by another, nor is it created both by oneself and by another, nor has it arisen fortuitously, being created neither by oneself nor by another; but rather, with consciousness as condition, name-and-form comes to be.”

“How is it, friend Sāriputta: Is consciousness created by oneself, or is it created by another, or is it created both by oneself and by another, or has it arisen fortuitously, being created neither by oneself nor by another?”

“Consciousness, friend Koṭṭhita, is not created by oneself, nor is it created by another, nor is it created both by oneself and by another, nor has it arisen fortuitously, being created neither by oneself nor by another; but rather, with name-and-form as condition, consciousness comes to be.”
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
PeterC86
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Re: Consciousness association to Nama?

Post by PeterC86 »

Dhammapardon wrote: Tue Nov 08, 2022 6:32 am SN 12.67

“Name-and-form, friend Koṭṭhita, is not created by oneself, nor is it created by another, nor is it created both by oneself and by another, nor has it arisen fortuitously, being created neither by oneself nor by another; but rather, with consciousness as condition, name-and-form comes to be.”

“How is it, friend Sāriputta: Is consciousness created by oneself, or is it created by another, or is it created both by oneself and by another, or has it arisen fortuitously, being created neither by oneself nor by another?”

“Consciousness, friend Koṭṭhita, is not created by oneself, nor is it created by another, nor is it created both by oneself and by another, nor has it arisen fortuitously, being created neither by oneself nor by another; but rather, with name-and-form as condition, consciousness comes to be.”
Yes, this is also described in DN15. In order to understand this, one has to understand DO as a mental process, being based upon name-and-form. I recently explained how one is able to understand this here. I will elaborate on this explanation in this post.

The 12 links explanation of DO is the explanation for the cause of suffering, it is not the explanation for the cessation of suffering. In other words, the 12 links explanation of DO is not how DO should be understood in order to transcend the cause of this suffering, because in the 12 links it is explained how someone who doesn't understand DO comes to birth and suffering. If one understands the 12 links of DO, one understands the cause of suffering, but understanding the cause is not the same as being cured. So in order to escape from - and cessate - this suffering, one needs to find out how to be free from the 12 links that are the cause of birth and suffering; one needs to find the 'exit'.

This 'exit' is given in the excerpt from the sutta you posted, namely understanding name-and-form as a cause of consciousness. It is through the buddhadhamma, in name-and-form, that one becomes conscious of the cause of suffering. That is to say, by understanding the names that are given to forms in the suttas, one becomes conscious of the workings of DO. This doesn't only apply to the suttas, but this applies to everything one is conscious of. It is 'only' through the buddhadhamma that one came to understand this.

In order to understand the above, one needs to understand that a thought is a form, and the name of a thought is 'thought'. So a thought is also a form, hence the Buddha treated it as a sense base.
pulga
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Re: Consciousness association to Nama?

Post by pulga »

Dhammapardon wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 6:00 am In what way are consciousness and nama associated?
Venerable Ñanavira lays it out nicely in his Shorter Note on Viññāna.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
Pulsar
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Re: Consciousness association to Nama?

Post by Pulsar »

OP asked
In what way are consciousness and nama associated?
A novel consciousness arises when a rupa arising in the previous consciousness (depending on the sense base from where it arose) grabs the attention, and thus gets named according to the teaching of Paticca samuppada, Buddha's doctrine of Dependent Origination.
Naming in other words is associated with identification,
Once identified or a rupa is named, it is also considered as an acquisition (whether it be form i.e. sight recalled by the mind, or sound recalled by the mind, etc), that identification leads to continuation of samsara.
It is in this manner that consciousness and name are associated. An ever renewing process in the unawakened.
With love :candle:
Dhammapardon
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Re: Consciousness association to Nama?

Post by Dhammapardon »

Thank you for the good insights. I'm still exploring them and already finding a clearer understanding. :reading:
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
pegembara
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Re: Consciousness association to Nama?

Post by pegembara »

Consciousness is tied up with sense experience.
Without consciousness you don't experience anything, without sense experience how can you know that you are conscious?
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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cappuccino
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Re: Consciousness association to Nama?

Post by cappuccino »

pegembara wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:24 am without sense experience how can you know that you are conscious?
“There is that sphere where there is no earth, no water, no fire nor wind; no sphere of infinity of space, of infinity of consciousness, of nothingness or even of neither-perception-nor non-perception; there, there is neither this world nor the other world, neither moon nor sun; this sphere I call neither a coming nor a going nor a staying still, neither a dying nor a reappearance; it has no basis, no evolution and no support: this, just this, is the end of dukkha.”
~ Ud 8.1
justindesilva
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Re: Consciousness association to Nama?

Post by justindesilva »

pegembara wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:24 am Consciousness is tied up with sense experience.
Without consciousness you don't experience anything, without sense experience how can you know that you are conscious?
Abinandana sutta sn 22.29 explain that one who takes delight in pancaskanda takes delight in suffering. And one who does not takes delght in pancaskanda is relieved from suffering. Taking delight here means amount to taking it as a pleasure.
Pancaskanda is rupa, vedana, sangna, sankara vingnana or consciousness . Rupa being form or eye sight, sound, smell etc. is compared to foam which vanishes and keep recurring . Passes it on to vedana or sensations sangna or colours or signals passing to sankara or concepts which are all nama. Awareness of nama is vingnana or consciousness that is not static either. Consciousness too keeps recurring. Hence one cannot cling on to vingnana with pleasure and it too is suffering or dukka
pegembara
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Re: Consciousness association to Nama?

Post by pegembara »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:32 am
pegembara wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:24 am without sense experience how can you know that you are conscious?
“There is that sphere where there is no earth, no water, no fire nor wind; no sphere of infinity of space, of infinity of consciousness, of nothingness or even of neither-perception-nor non-perception; there, there is neither this world nor the other world, neither moon nor sun; this sphere I call neither a coming nor a going nor a staying still, neither a dying nor a reappearance; it has no basis, no evolution and no support: this, just this, is the end of dukkha.”
~ Ud 8.1
Is that a sense experience? Not even the experience of nothing!
There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

... remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And, having seen [that] with discernment, his mental fermentations are completely ended. So by this line of reasoning it may be known how Unbinding is pleasant."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
pegembara
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Re: Consciousness association to Nama?

Post by pegembara »

justindesilva wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:22 am
pegembara wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:24 am Consciousness is tied up with sense experience.
Without consciousness you don't experience anything, without sense experience how can you know that you are conscious?
Abinandana sutta sn 22.29 explain that one who takes delight in pancaskanda takes delight in suffering. And one who does not takes delght in pancaskanda is relieved from suffering. Taking delight here means amount to taking it as a pleasure.
Pancaskanda is rupa, vedana, sangna, sankara vingnana or consciousness . Rupa being form or eye sight, sound, smell etc. is compared to foam which vanishes and keep recurring . Passes it on to vedana or sensations sangna or colours or signals passing to sankara or concepts which are all nama. Awareness of nama is vingnana or consciousness that is not static either. Consciousness too keeps recurring. Hence one cannot cling on to vingnana with pleasure and it too is suffering or dukka
Vinnana is tied to sense experience. If you are not attached to any sense experience, it amounts to the same thing. Pleasure is an experience, no?
Same for forms, feelings, thoughts, perceptions, sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch, pain.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
justindesilva
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Re: Consciousness association to Nama?

Post by justindesilva »

pegembara wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:44 am
justindesilva wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:22 am
pegembara wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 2:24 am Consciousness is tied up with sense experience.
Without consciousness you don't experience anything, without sense experience how can you know that you are conscious?
Abinandana sutta sn 22.29 explain that one who takes delight in pancaskanda takes delight in suffering. And one who does not takes delght in pancaskanda is relieved from suffering. Taking delight here means amount to taking it as a pleasure.
Pancaskanda is rupa, vedana, sangna, sankara vingnana or consciousness . Rupa being form or eye sight, sound, smell etc. is compared to foam which vanishes and keep recurring . Passes it on to vedana or sensations sangna or colours or signals passing to sankara or concepts which are all nama. Awareness of nama is vingnana or consciousness that is not static either. Consciousness too keeps recurring. Hence one cannot cling on to vingnana with pleasure and it too is suffering or dukka
Vinnana is tied to sense experience. If you are not attached to any sense experience, it amounts to the same thing. Pleasure is an experience, no?
Same for forms, feelings, thoughts, perceptions, sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touch, pain.
Yes my friend Pegembera, your post is agreed , but I only wanted to elaborate the same.
With metta
Justin .
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cappuccino
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Re: Consciousness association to Nama?

Post by cappuccino »

pegembara wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 4:38 am Is that a sense experience? Not even the experience of nothing!
He discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'


Gelañña Sutta
Pulsar
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Re: Consciousness association to Nama?

Post by Pulsar »

Capuccino wrote
He discerns that 'With the break-up of the body, after the termination of life, all that is sensed, not being relished, will grow cold right here.'
It is found in SN 36.7.
It contradicts the teachings found elsewhere in the canon. This particular claim is not found in SA 1028, its parallel.
How do you explain this anomaly? The OPs question relates to Dependent Origination. Does the Arahant have to wait until physical death (passage appears to imply that) for sense bases to disappear, for the relishing and delighting at the sense bases to end?
The teachings in the Salayatana Samyutta contradict the above statement. An understanding of Salayatana is critical for the understanding of "Consciousness association to Nama"
There was a very helpful thread on "Sense Bases Disappear" where Retro went to great lengths to explain
Salayatana.
viewtopic.php?t=43483
It will explain how sense bases disappear in the Arahant soteriologically, even while the physical body of Arahant remains actively. Arahant does not wait until physical death, for delight and relishing to vanish
Did you follow that thread?
With love :candle:
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