General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
In DN 16 we get a tiny indication of how Āḷāra Kālāma practiced meditation
Once it so happened that Āḷāra Kālāma, while traveling along a road, left the road and sat at the root of a nearby tree for the day’s meditation. Then around five hundred carts passed by right next to Āḷāra Kālāma. Then a certain person coming behind those carts went up to Āḷāra Kālāma and said to him: ‘Sir, didn’t you see the five hundred carts pass by?’
‘No, friend, I didn’t see them.’
‘But sir, didn’t you hear a sound?’
‘No, friend, I didn’t hear a sound.’
‘But sir, were you asleep?’
‘No, friend, I wasn’t asleep.’
‘But sir, were you conscious?’
‘Yes, friend.’ ‘So, sir, while conscious and awake you neither saw nor heard a sound as five hundred carts passed by right next to you? Why sir, even your outer robe is covered with dust!’
‘Yes, friend.’
Then that person thought: ‘It’s incredible, it’s amazing! Those who have gone forth remain in such peaceful meditations, in that, while conscious and awake he neither saw nor heard a sound as five hundred carts passed by right next to him.’ And after declaring his lofty confidence in Āḷāra Kālāma, he left.”
The interesting thing to note is that Āḷāra Kālāma neither heard nor saw the carts, which suggests that whilst in the meditation of Nothingness his eyes were open. This got me thinking, should the eyes also be open when practicing for Jhāna, say when doing mindfulness of breathing?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ceisiwr wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:10 pm
In DN 16 we get a tiny indication of how Āḷāra Kālāma practiced meditation
Once it so happened that Āḷāra Kālāma, while traveling along a road, left the road and sat at the root of a nearby tree for the day’s meditation. Then around five hundred carts passed by right next to Āḷāra Kālāma. Then a certain person coming behind those carts went up to Āḷāra Kālāma and said to him: ‘Sir, didn’t you see the five hundred carts pass by?’
‘No, friend, I didn’t see them.’
‘But sir, didn’t you hear a sound?’
‘No, friend, I didn’t hear a sound.’
‘But sir, were you asleep?’
‘No, friend, I wasn’t asleep.’
‘But sir, were you conscious?’
‘Yes, friend.’ ‘So, sir, while conscious and awake you neither saw nor heard a sound as five hundred carts passed by right next to you? Why sir, even your outer robe is covered with dust!’
‘Yes, friend.’
Then that person thought: ‘It’s incredible, it’s amazing! Those who have gone forth remain in such peaceful meditations, in that, while conscious and awake he neither saw nor heard a sound as five hundred carts passed by right next to him.’ And after declaring his lofty confidence in Āḷāra Kālāma, he left.”
The interesting thing to note is that Āḷāra Kālāma neither heard nor saw the carts, which suggests that whilst in the meditation of Nothingness his eyes were open. This got me thinking, should the eyes also be open when practicing for Jhāna, say when doing mindfulness of breathing?
My suggestion is that "seeing" is here used as a common shorthand for "experience, be aware of". And then the second question is about the means by which he would have been aware (hearing). And the third is suggesting a reason as to why he didn't hear. I'd always thought of this as him not seeing the carts because he didn't open his eyes upon hearing the rumbling. Seeing them would give him the truth of the situation, whereas merely hearing would have left open the possibility that it was something else. Elephants? Thunder?
Sam Vara wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:31 pm
My suggestion is that "seeing" is here used as a common shorthand for "experience, be aware of". And then the second question is about the means by which he would have been aware (hearing). And the third is suggesting a reason as to why he didn't hear. I'd always thought of this as him not seeing the carts because he didn't open his eyes upon hearing the rumbling. Seeing them would give him the truth of the situation, whereas merely hearing would have left open the possibility that it was something else. Elephants? Thunder?
Hmm I'm not sure. It reads to me like he should have seen them with his eyes but didn't.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Sam Vara wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:31 pm
My suggestion is that "seeing" is here used as a common shorthand for "experience, be aware of". And then the second question is about the means by which he would have been aware (hearing). And the third is suggesting a reason as to why he didn't hear. I'd always thought of this as him not seeing the carts because he didn't open his eyes upon hearing the rumbling. Seeing them would give him the truth of the situation, whereas merely hearing would have left open the possibility that it was something else. Elephants? Thunder?
Hmm I'm not sure. It reads to me like he should have seen them with his eyes but didn't.
Oddly enough, we never hear about what Udakka Ramaputa has to say about passing carts.
Sound is a thorn to first jhana. One hears but does not grasp at perceptions.
So Ramaputa would have even eclipsed Kalama.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
Sam Vara wrote: ↑Sun Sep 18, 2022 10:31 pm
My suggestion is that "seeing" is here used as a common shorthand for "experience, be aware of". And then the second question is about the means by which he would have been aware (hearing). And the third is suggesting a reason as to why he didn't hear. I'd always thought of this as him not seeing the carts because he didn't open his eyes upon hearing the rumbling. Seeing them would give him the truth of the situation, whereas merely hearing would have left open the possibility that it was something else. Elephants? Thunder?
Hmm I'm not sure. It reads to me like he should have seen them with his eyes but didn't.
Oddly enough, we never hear about what Udakka Ramaputa has to say about passing carts.
Sound is a thorn to first jhana. One hears but does not grasp at perceptions.
So Ramaputa would have even eclipsed Kalama.
In the Maha-prajnaparamita-sastra it quotes the same line of text but this time with both Alara and Udakka, meaning in the Sarvāstivādin version it talked about both.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Hmm I'm not sure. It reads to me like he should have seen them with his eyes but didn't.
Oddly enough, we never hear about what Udakka Ramaputa has to say about passing carts.
Sound is a thorn to first jhana. One hears but does not grasp at perceptions.
So Ramaputa would have even eclipsed Kalama.
In the Maha-prajnaparamita-sastra it quotes the same line of text but this time with both Alara and Udakka, meaning in the Sarvāstivādin version it talked about both.
I can’t speak to Alara, but if Udakka had been in the state of “neither perception nor non-perception” then even with his eyes and ears open, he would not have been aware of the noise and busyness. Well. He would and he wouldn’t.
The point of the Alara and Udakka story is that the Buddha went farther and discovered “Nirodha Samapatti”.
And that is why his ability to ignore perceptions surpasses his predecessor teachers.
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
