Suicide: Sutta versus Commentary

[Eko Care]

This was in reference to several (3 or more) Westerner Monks who are Suttanta only and killed themselves.

• Ven NyanaVira (Clearing the Path)

• The monk from the what-the-buddha-saiddotnet website

• A monk who lived near to the Island Forest Hermitage where ven Nyanavira was from… recently last year or so.

True, I wonder why such unfortunate incident happened to those western monks. It gives a bad name to Buddhism if viewed by other religions’ people, they might say without understanding: “Look at them! They practice and yet kill themselves! What could be more wrong than if a religion encourages suicides?”

The problem is being totally Suttanta and not believing the commentary…
There are many suttas which reference Suicide and then afterwards, the Buddha declared that they used the knife blamelessly.

The most recent EBT suicide this year, is the Iranian monk in Sri Lanka, who had been arguing for EBT philosophy always.

https://classicaltheravada.org/t/suicid ... entary/322

[BrokenBones]

Is there a question?

Is there a discrepancy between sutta and commentaries?

[DNS]

This was in reference to several (3 or more) Westerner Monks who are Suttanta only and killed themselves.

• Ven NyanaVira (Clearing the Path)

• The monk from the what-the-buddha-saiddotnet website

• A monk who lived near to the Island Forest Hermitage where ven Nyanavira was from… recently last year or so.

Not sure if #2 above counts as EBT monk. He quoted Abhidhamma more than a few times.
viewtopic.php?p=429460#p429460

Nanavira had a terminal illness, but not saying that justifies the suicide action.

#3 above and #4 (monk from Iran), need more information on them.

[Eko Care]

#3 above and #4 (monk from Iran), need more information on them.

Was Ven.Jinawamsa ready for lessons on impermanence?

Govt. Analyst’s findings reveal Dutch monk committed suicide

Ajhan Jinawamsa Thera came to Sri Lanka eight years ago and seemed to have ended his search of true Buddhism when he landed at Polgasduwa Island Monastery. He has received good reviews from his peers and teacher monks after his death, but stories that the monk might have been depressed is a talk that’s doing the rounds.

There is no talk or record about the monk making great progress in his meditation. There is also talk about the monk being annoyed with activities in the area like fishing in the Rathgama Lagoon, noisy boats moving around in the waters close to the monks’ huts, the destruction of mangroves and the plans to construct a road across a sanctuary in the vicinity of the hermitage. Did the monk still get involved in worldly affairs despite taking to robes?

Another prominent fact that’s highlighted in recent newspaper articles is that some of the foreign monks in this island hermitage have been dejected with the negativities of life. Some of these foreign monks though being eager to don the yellow robes have found it hard to digest lessons on impermanence. This could have been the issue with Ajhan Janawamsa Thera. In the hut that the priest meditated the police found two mobile phones, 11 memory cards and two sound recorders, but according to newspaper reports the SIM cards of both phones were missing. Did the priest have contact with the outside world?

An issue associated with the foreign monks is that they are hellbent on becoming scholars in the Dhamma and neglect the practice of love (Karuna) to others including oneself.

There have been occasions when the minds of foreign monks have rioted when the atmosphere they are made to meditate in doesn’t agree with them. In the case of Ajhan Jinawamsa Thera the civil activities that were threatening the peace in the area of these monasteries (there are four islands housing such monasteries) were not to the liking of him and other island hermit monks.

Most of these foreign monks have had the experience of studying other religions. There are accounts of Ajhan Jinawamsa Thera showing great interest in accepting any books on Buddhism written in English.

The late forest dwelling monk Thambugala Anandasiri had stressed that priests who observe precepts alone won’t make progress towards enlightenment. Anandasiri affirms that a hermitage must meet 10 qualities to be accepted by the ‘Sansthawa’. One of them is to have a priest with Thripitaka knowledge who can teach it to others. Did the late Ajhan Jinawamsa Thera learn his lessons well or did he lack receiving detailed instructions?

[DNS]

I remember that story now. It's strange the authorities were so quick to rule it a suicide. It could very well be suicide, but a large boulder tied to his leg? That is how some people get killed in the U.S. They found no poison in his body from the autopsy. There doesn't need to be poison in his body for it to be murder. Mafia and other killers send the victims down to the bottom of a river or lake, with "cement shoes" or a boulder, knowing they will drown.

[Sasha_A]

Is there a discrepancy between sutta and commentaries?

Well, yes. This topic is covered in great detail by Ven.Thanissaro in his book "The Buddhist Monastic Code" - Pārājika, ch. 3.

The Commentary extrapolates from this case to apply the dukkaṭa to all attempts at suicide, including even the decision not to take food when motivated by a desire to die.
...
It is worth noting that the origin story to the original rule here gave the Buddha the opportunity, had he wanted it, to formulate a general rule against attempted suicides, but he chose not to. He later formulated this subsidiary rule only when a bhikkhu attempted a suicide in a way that endangered the life and safety of another person. Thus a more appropriate way of applying the Great Standards to this subsidiary rule would be to extend it only to cases of that sort: where a bhikkhu’s attempts at suicide would bring danger to another person’s life and limb.

As for ways of attempting suicide that do not endanger others, it seems better to follow the Buddha’s wisdom in not legislating about this issue at all, and to treat it as a matter of Dhamma rather than Vinaya. In other words, one should keep in mind his comment in SN 35:87 that the only blameless death is an arahant’s. If, lacking that attainment, one chooses to refuse food when ill to speed up one’s death, one should be heedful of the risks that death and rebirth can involve.

[Eko Care]

The Commentary extrapolates from this case to apply the dukkaṭa to all attempts at suicide, including even the decision not to take food when motivated by a desire to die.

Yes, this is how Moderns start to justify suicide. I know most of EBT monks follow BMC. Good luck!

It is worth noting that the origin story to the original rule here gave the Buddha the opportunity, had he wanted it, to formulate a general rule against attempted suicides, but he chose not to. He later formulated this subsidiary rule only when a bhikkhu attempted a suicide in a way that endangered the life and safety of another person.

Inventive Pro-suicide opinon

Thus a more appropriate way of applying the Great Standards to this subsidiary rule would be to extend it only to cases of that sort: where a bhikkhu’s attempts at suicide would bring danger to another person’s life and limb.

He is legislating his speculation.

As for ways of attempting suicide that do not endanger others, it seems better to follow the Buddha’s wisdom in not legislating about this issue at all

With the ego of "We are the ones who follow the direct Buddha-vacana".

and to treat it as a matter of Dhamma rather than Vinaya.

Vinaya is only the sphere of the Buddhas. Is he a Buddha?

[Sasha_A]

Yes, this is how Moderns start to justify suicide. I know most of EBT monks follow BMC. Good luck!

Inventive Pro-suicide opinon

He is legislating his speculation.

With the ego of "We are the ones who follow the direct Buddha-vacana".

Vinaya is only the sphere of the Buddhas. Is he a Buddha?

Khm... Really?!
Here the wish of good luck will really be appropriate.

[Eko Care]

Another related information can be seen here:
Why modern Sutta practice doesn't lead to Samadhi?

Generally and classically,

• Suttas are considered to lead towards Samadhi.

• Vinaya leads towards Sila

• Abhidhamma leads towards Panna.

Nevertheless,
Most of the Modern Sutta Practioners seem to be far away from Samadhi
than even Vinaya and Abhidhamma people.
They seem to be,

• Less calm and too aggressive

• Highly critical, tough and rough

• Disobedient ant conceited

than other two kinds generally.

What is the reason for that? Is it the reason that,

• their modern interpretation is not the real Sutta interpretation

• or their Sutta collection is not enough

• or they don't apply Suttas in to real life at least a little.

• or multiple of them

I find suttanta people to be quite angry in their writings and speech.
One seasoned suttanta monk calls this "nyanavirus". Usually people outgrow this stage, but it is typically shortly after they read "clearing the path".
I would guess the same is with EBT followers who prefer chinese writings with Mahayana influence over the Pali texts.

Most of the Modern Sutta Practioners seem to be far away from Samadhi
than even Vinaya and Abhidhamma people.

Do you have specific people in mind for this or is this just a generalization?
What leads you to believe this?

• Having seen many people of modern EBT/Sutta kind are less calm

• and having seen classical-type Sutta/Vinaya/Abhidhamma practioners are not in a higher un-easiness relatively

• and having seen/read/asked others about their observations which says the same.

(I don't know about everyone, but may be majority/most of them I guess)

What observations have you made?

The below are related to every Putujjana. But if we only compare the given two groups, we can see some relative differences considering only the majority of real practitioners of both groups in general.

• In an uneasiness

• Quickly aroused when hear a different view

• Having the qualities of Teenagers

• Not Matured

• Highly Critical yet with less evidence

• Less respect to Sangha (ancient and modern both)

• Too Aggressive

• Having dual mind (Dhamma-driven and too silly qualities at the same time)

• Argue in a Naive way which drives mature people away from their discussions/book/recordings

• Having relatively immature views even in day to day life (outside the Dhamma practice)