Samanera without dependence?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Johann
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by Johann »

Take care of yours. Nobody required to worry about Samana Johann. But good if taking much care to possible soon come into dependency of the heritage, doing so requires yours deep respect, even toward a 7, 8 years old Ven.Samanera, not to speak about your patiently Ven. Theras, so that they aren't required to either give up (not only yours) or do improper, and such starts by showing face, venerate, bow down, sit lower and invite.

Venerables are required to have their own space seperatly and nothing more destructive for faith, if they have to correct each other or truly far from any aspect of independency. And no, Monks in this Sasana, neither take on agreements of TOS nor other not faithfully offered.

Nobody could could address yours in ways like this, of the Venerable Bhikkhus.

And again: it's impossible to grow in this Dhamma, even get it near proper attention, if not leaving home, stand, or in other words, give up ones own for the Gems, impossible as long byāpāda (out of making own, wish to controll) and stinginess of the five kinds reign.

Make an end of the many of yours "God-less" and dark living, try to gain really refuge, a real teacher, and abstain from feeding on thieves.

And no, even if later really given to make use the domain, my person wouldn't accept, or simply abound, forward the deed of merits toward the Sangha, so that yours would gain a base to gain and increase Nissaya, relation.

May one use abonded key as wishing *234678aa* And violating the TOS permanent is of course a right observation, never even a thought to accept such mud.

metta & mudita
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retrofuturist
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Johann,

If that's what you believe, why are you here?

Why aren't you simply leaving householders be, and instead fulfilling the holy life, the purpose for which you left home?

I don't recall anyone forcing you to come to this forum. Moreover, I recall you being banned for TOS-violations and returning nonetheless.

Either it's OK for those in robes to engage with householders or it's not. You can't just have it whichever way suits you in any given minute.

Similarly, you berate people for allegedly thieving from the Jewels, yet you're a samanera without dependence, very well doing that which you accuse others of doing. Do those who sustain you know of your true status, or are they being deceived by robes and a shaved head?

Whatever you choose to do, at least be consistent, and cut the nonsense because you're not bringing faith to the Triple Gem with your ongoing presence here. Far from it, especially when you're berating bhikkhus to whom you should be bowing.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
asahi
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by asahi »

To my knowledge probably there is no problem with samanera without dependence . I know 3 bhikkhu whom demoted himself to samanera , one is due to personal health reason whom decided to live alone without giving or making much hindrances or problems to others and another one if not mistaken whom decided to demoted so that he can help doing some tasks for the monastics so as to serve them better and last one whom decided to demoted so that he can practice alone according to his own way .
Peace is more precious than triumph
jinic
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by jinic »

According to the Commentary, a novice who breaks any of the first five training rules has cut himself off from the Triple Refuge, from his preceptor, from his right to Community gains, and from his right to a lodging in a monastery. He is still a novice, though, and if he sees the error of his ways and is determined to restrain himself in the future, he may take the Triple Refuge from his preceptor again and so be restored to his former status.

The customary practice is for novices also to receive training in the Sekhiya rules and Khandhaka protocols, but there is no established standard for imposing offenses on them for breaking any of these rules.

Dependence

A novice must live in dependence on a mentor. Both mentor and novice are expected to follow the appropriate protocols with regard to the other (see Chapter 9). 
https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/Section0066.html
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Johann
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by Johann »

jinic wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 12:16 pm
According to the Commentary, a novice who breaks any of the first five training rules has cut himself off from the Triple Refuge, from his preceptor, from his right to Community gains, and from his right to a lodging in a monastery. He is still a novice, though, and if he sees the error of his ways and is determined to restrain himself in the future, he may take the Triple Refuge from his preceptor again and so be restored to his former status.

The customary practice is for novices also to receive training in the Sekhiya rules and Khandhaka protocols, but there is no established standard for imposing offenses on them for breaking any of these rules.

Dependence

A novice must live in dependence on a mentor. Both mentor and novice are expected to follow the appropriate protocols with regard to the other (see Chapter 9). 
https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/Section0066.html
Aharahant Rus

As highly regarded Bhante remains, and as helpful the huge work, for many parts, might be for Pabbajito, they do not only represent improper deliverance, but grave mistakes and personal ideas which have already caused many downfalls, especially in regard of taking what isn't given.

As for this "minor" error:
Nowhere does this statement has any foundation, that there is even any duty (it might sound gross) for a Pabbajito aside his training rules (here assuming that Pabbajito and Samanera (created for underaged later) are the same.
But even if assuming that a Pabbajito has to live steady by his preceptor, similar like Bhikkhus, good to know the whole thing.
No where is there any remark that a Pabbajito is required to follow the protocol the Bhikkhus must follow.
And even there, yours might wonder, why it happens that Bhikkhus dwell alone: there are circumstances where there is no fault, such as travel, no proper Nissaya trace-able, dwelling alone (having gained Samadhi), or qualities like an Arahat without faults.

If yours here would turn the focus more proper, things could be sorted out, but Atma guesses it's merely like ever, trying to defend own ideas and look how to not feel wrong.

It's of course usual for any kind of good going Pabbajito, even for Arahats, if dwelling alone, steady hoping for good fellows, even teacher, and take on what ever proper depencency if next.

Good householder Asahi seems to be more familar with the tradition as for most all are just fictions from book store.

To let one know also other usuals: it's also common to ask Upasaka, Upasika, if in certain instruction relation, of whom their preceptor was, is, as well as they usually ask for refuge and precepts before receiving higher teachings.

Again, the topic is a good, as this isn't a Sasana where the followers have no relation to their teaches, no common creativity.

And whom could yours count to having gone for the Gems? Amazon? BPS? Google? Copy thieves?

Isn't it time to approach your Venerables here together, Bhante Pesala, Bhante Dhammanando, bow down, ask for forgiviness of past, ask for refuge and those desire to gain precepts, as well?

Isn't it not time, that some of knowledgeable lay people are kindly asked to help adopt proper ways, so that not any instructed person feels by secounds ashamed of this place similar of pig raising places?

Most monasteries, places wher monks dwell aren't any thing else then pig-raising places, but it's not so that pigs don't gather not liberal.

Yours would be much more smart if making it a place to serve Gods, Sublime, and the Juwels instead of using the mass of weak monks for your weak own gains.

Enough not, it so immense disgusting what western did all over that the whole tradition of old seeks nothing but being not a little related with the going on.

And again, although "hope" dies at least, or say, the goodness of the well gone with their final depature, it's not to be assumed, as so many grave transgression had been done before, that those in main charge would grow wiser, and therefore again, good if seeking last still a little solide grounds.

This foolish double agents undertaking, misinforming, bias-censuring, and thinking it's a game to try to let recluses step on soaps, will another time case a lot of demerits by those... and therefore, not remembering a single case since child, where people only had bad thought, not to speak of words or deeds, didn't met great misfortune very quite, and not avoidable, no way to help them in any way, better to stay far away from fools as they would just increase their demerits till highest peak.

It's quite enough, wouldn't get further, to pardon - if feeling that it would be prope - toward your two Venerables here, and try the best for a useful and good guides, asked from above, restart. And the sooner, the better.

As already often told, the bowls are turned over toward the "west", modern "buddhist" world, by those still on track and not fallen like-a-like.

Sure, as thought to serve to opposite, fools will take it even as "way to go" to it firse in always always into the own knee for lost.
Last edited by Johann on Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
jinic
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by jinic »

I can't understand most of what you are saying Johann.
Most monasteries, places wher monks dwell aren't any thing else then pig-raising places, but it's not so that pigs don't gather not liberal.
Either way i strongly advice you to abstain from disparaging anyone, let alone the Bhikkhusangha, before this matter is further spread about reaching the Khmer King & his ministers...

Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house...
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Sam Vara
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Re: Samanera without dependence?

Post by Sam Vara »

This thread has now as much ill-temper as incomprehensibility, so I'm going to lock it, at least temporarily.

If anyone thinks they can add something useful within the ToS, please PM the mods.
Locked