Nibbana and nirodha - synonymous?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Nibbana and nirodha - synonymous?

Post by Assaji »

asahi wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:08 am
Assaji wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:31 am "Nirodha" means "cessation". Like an English word "cessation", it refers to different things in different contexts. Sometimes it refers to "dukkha nirodha", sometimes not. See, for example, nine various types of nirodha described at:

https://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a ... irodha.htm
Here is another explanation .
Nirōdha comes from “nir”+”udaya”, where “nir” means stop and “udaya” means “arise”.
If you prefer fancy Suttacentral explanations, you, of course, have a right to do so.

Still, If you would like to know the real etymology of this word, I can tell you that it originates from the verb "nirundhati", which comes from "ni" plus "rundhati".

https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/p ... type=exact
https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/p ... type=exact

The original root here is "rudh":
https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=UX ... &lpg=PA623
Thus nirōdha means stop something from arising . It doesnt mean something exists ceased but the cause is eliminated , no new arising is nirodha .
This fancy explanation may be appealing, but it doesn't hold water, since it contradicts the actual usage of this word.
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: Nibbana and nirodha - synonymous?

Post by asahi »

Assaji wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:58 pm
asahi wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:08 am
Assaji wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:31 am "Nirodha" means "cessation". Like an English word "cessation", it refers to different things in different contexts. Sometimes it refers to "dukkha nirodha", sometimes not. See, for example, nine various types of nirodha described at:

https://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a ... irodha.htm
Here is another explanation .
Nirōdha comes from “nir”+”udaya”, where “nir” means stop and “udaya” means “arise”.
If you prefer fancy Suttacentral explanations, you, of course, have a right to do so.

Still, If you would like to know the real etymology of this word, I can tell you that it comes from the verb "nirundhati", and it comes from "ni" plus "rundhati".

https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/p ... type=exact
https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/p ... type=exact

The original root here is "rudh":
https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=UX ... &lpg=PA623
Thus nirōdha means stop something from arising . It doesnt mean something exists ceased but the cause is eliminated , no new arising is nirodha .
This fancy explanation may be appealing, but it doesn't hold water, since it contradicts the actual usage of this word.
Hi Assaji ,

I would question , say if ignorance nirodha means ignorance get eliminated or sankhara nirodha is sankhara get eliminated ! But what one called ignorance or sankhara is something of the past hence you cant eliminate it as the thing no longer present or it has gone . What one can eliminate is the cause of ignorance .
No bashing No gossiping
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Nibbana and nirodha - synonymous?

Post by Assaji »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 11:10 am
Assaji wrote: Sun Sep 04, 2022 6:40 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Sun Aug 28, 2022 6:25 pm I assumed dukkha-nirodha, but it's worth clarifying.
Yes, it is worth clarifying. Nirodha may refer to many different things: https://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a ... irodha.htm

Since Brahmavamso conflated all the various meanings of nirodha into a single one, this new concept makes some people think that the goal of Buddhist path is a postmortem annihilation.

Healthy and precise understanding of nirodha as "dukkha-nirodha" in its proper context helps to understand that it can be attained during your lifetime - like the Buddha attained it.
It sounds like you regard Nibbana and dukkha-nirodha as synonymous?
Of course. The cessation of suffering is the definition of Nibbāṇa.

https://accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/ ... index.html
User avatar
Assaji
Posts: 2106
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:24 pm

Re: Nibbana and nirodha - synonymous?

Post by Assaji »

Hi Asahi,
asahi wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:05 pm I would question , say if ignorance nirodha means ignorance get eliminated or sankhara nirodha is sankhara get eliminated ! But what one called ignorance or sankhara is something of the past hence you cant eliminate it as the thing no longer present or it has gone . What one can eliminate is the cause of ignorance .
It's hard to understand you. Perhaps you are talking about the Conditioned Arising (paṭicca-samuppāda) where ignorance and saṅkhāra belong to the previous lifetime?

Conditioned Arising (paṭicca-samuppāda) shows how the factors in the previous lifetime condition the factors in the following lifetime. In other words, it describes how suffering is recreated over and over again. We can also apply the first two links to this lifetime, and see that if we'll have ignorance and saṅkhāra by the end of the current lifetime, we'll have rebirth and the next lifetime with consciousness and nāma-rūpa (mind and body).

So far, ignorance and saṅkhāra are right here right now.
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: Nibbana and nirodha - synonymous?

Post by asahi »

Assaji wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:36 pm So far, ignorance and saṅkhāra are right here right now.
Hi Assaji ,

I am sorry if i havent stated it clearly . Yes , i was referring to present life present moment ignorance . Ignorance isnt something static or stagnant , whenever we dont have wise or proper attention , at that moment we let ignorance occur thus are in ignorance state . The moment (even a few moment) we have appropriate attention then we prevent ignorance occur thus are not in ignorance state . With that understanding , we eliminate ignorance by developing wise attention moment by moment until we can have a solid foundation state piercing through dependent arising where ignorance wouldnt occur . Thus , we never eliminate "something" called ignorance which is a past tense . Instead we eliminate the cause of ignorance which is unwise attention . I hope this is understandable .
No bashing No gossiping
Post Reply