Where might one find a refutation of Vasubandhu and Yogacara, as devastating as Betty and others papers on Nagarjuna?

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Eko Care
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Where might one find a refutation of Vasubandhu and Yogacara, as devastating as Betty and others papers on Nagarjuna?

Post by Eko Care »

https://classicaltheravada.org/t/where- ... arjuna/325
Nagarjuna, and so also Madhyamaka, has been thoroughly refuted and disproven (see below for examples), where is the same treatment applied to Vasubandhu and Yogacara?
I found a great example of what I’m looking for, though the author is not addressing Yogacara directly, the views he demonstrates as self refuting are identical to those of Vasubandhu, and Yogacara.
https://classicaltheravada.org/t/where- ... juna/325/9

If everything is an illusion of mind, then YOU are an illusion of my mind.
YOU don't exist.
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Re: Where might one find a refutation of Vasubandhu and Yogacara, as devastating as Betty and others papers on Nagarjuna

Post by confusedlayman »

Eko Care wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:46 am https://classicaltheravada.org/t/where- ... arjuna/325
Nagarjuna, and so also Madhyamaka, has been thoroughly refuted and disproven (see below for examples), where is the same treatment applied to Vasubandhu and Yogacara?
I found a great example of what I’m looking for, though the author is not addressing Yogacara directly, the views he demonstrates as self refuting are identical to those of Vasubandhu, and Yogacara.
https://classicaltheravada.org/t/where- ... juna/325/9

If everything is an illusion of mind, then YOU are an illusion of my mind.
YOU don't exist.
Who are these brainless scholars critizing ancient masters? I think it is result of ego.

Maybe scholars they take objects of conciousness as real.. who knows
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
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Eko Care
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Re: Where might one find a refutation of Vasubandhu and Yogacara, as devastating as Betty and others papers on Nagarjuna

Post by Eko Care »

Who are these brainless scholars critizing ancient masters? I think it is result of ego
.

Brain is neither wisdom nor mind.

And I have heard somewhat close statement from classicaltheravadins about modern scholars.
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Re: Where might one find a refutation of Vasubandhu and Yogacara, as devastating as Betty and others papers on Nagarjuna

Post by DNS »

Eko Care wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 12:46 am
Nagarjuna, and so also Madhyamaka, has been thoroughly refuted and disproven (see below for examples), where is the same treatment applied to Vasubandhu and Yogacara?
I found a great example of what I’m looking for, though the author is not addressing Yogacara directly, the views he demonstrates as self refuting are identical to those of Vasubandhu, and Yogacara.
https://classicaltheravada.org/t/where- ... juna/325/9

If everything is an illusion of mind, then YOU are an illusion of my mind.
YOU don't exist.
You are arguing that Madhyamaka and the idea that we are all an illusion of the mind, is incorrect, correct?

In another thread you wrote:
Eko Care wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 1:26 am Seek to find any entity apart from the below elements.

Take one by one and go around the circle, repeatedly, to find out any permanent entity that observes or handles everything being in the middle of them.
There is nothing permanent, there is anatta. So do we exist or do we not exist?

:stirthepot:
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Re: Where might one find a refutation of Vasubandhu and Yogacara, as devastating as Betty and others papers on Nagarjuna

Post by Dan74 »

A very common misunderstanding of Nagarjuna is that he was a nihilist. He was at pains to make it clear that he was making no statements about the ostensible reality "out there", postulating any position on its existence or non existence. Rather his aim was to demonstrate that entities, the way we conceive of them, make no sense, just like the concept of self, to be specific, doesn't. So to equate him to nihilism is to miss the point entirely. Nagarjuna is about relinquishing grasping onto the self, objects, theories and concepts, because they are empty designations, fictions, sometimes useful, other times harmful, but not to be clung to, in any case.
_/|\_
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Re: Where might one find a refutation of Vasubandhu and Yogacara, as devastating as Betty and others papers on Nagarjuna

Post by Justsit »

Dan74 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:05 pm A very common misunderstanding of Nagarjuna is that he was a nihilist. He was at pains to make it clear that he was making no statements about the ostensible reality "out there", postulating any position on its existence or non existence. Rather his aim was to demonstrate that entities, the way we conceive of them, make no sense, just like the concept of self, to be specific, doesn't. So to equate him to nihilism is to miss the point entirely. Nagarjuna is about relinquishing grasping onto the self, objects, theories and concepts, because they are empty designations, fictions, sometimes useful, other times harmful, but not to be clung to, in any case.
Good post.

Also, good to see you here, Dan. Miss your input on the other DW.
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Eko Care
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Re: Where might one find a refutation of Vasubandhu and Yogacara, as devastating as Betty and others papers on Nagarjuna

Post by Eko Care »

DNS wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:09 pm There is nothing permanent, there is anatta. So do we exist or do we not exist?
Not "we", but "momentary khandas" exist.
Or in other words "dukkha" exist.

(Concepts/Pannattis like "we" doesn't exist,
Realities/Paramatthas like "Khandas" do exist.)

See here:
Evidences for Objective Reality
Eko Care wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 12:24 pm There is a popular belief that "Rupa is originated by Mind" or "Everything is originated by Mind". This is often misrecognized as Theravada or Early Buddhism. This view is considered to be originated from Yogacara School.
robertk wrote: Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:13 am
Someone wrote: Rupa originates in the mind (is a mental event, a mental image)
Rupa knows nothing, yet it is true that only 'mind', mano, vinnana, citta can experience rupa so in that sense there is a mental event when rupa is experienced. However, it does not "originate in the mind".

Actually progress in meditation- in the sense of the devlopment of vipassana- is made when there is the discerning of nama, mentality, and rupa. Seeing them as distinct and of an entirely different nature.
Here is what venerable Maggavihari at IIT sees as the verification of “paramatthadhammas as existents” by considering the usage of Nominal-case-endings.
1.18. The idea of considering paramatthadhammas as existents can be verified with evidence from the canon itself. In number of suttas the Buddha mentions rūpa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra and viññāṇa to be dukkha (natures that bring suffering). When it is mentioned in suttas as “Rupaṃ dukkhaṃ” and “Vedanā dukkhā” usage of similar nominal case endings in rūpa and dukkha and vedanā and dukkha suggests that the terms are in apposition. It means what is referred by the term rūpa is the same that is referred by the word dukkha. The same should be understood with regard to the other two terms, vedanā and dukkha.

Then in the Acelakassapa Sutta, when being questioned by Acelakassapa whether there is no dukkha “Kiṃ nu kho, bho Gotama, natthi dukkhaṃ (Venerable Gotama, isn’t there dukkha)?”, the Buddha gave the direct answer, “Na kho, Kassapa, natthi dukkhaṃ. Atthi kho, Kassapa, dukkhaṃ (Kassapa, it is not that there is no dukkha. There is, indeed, dukkha)”.

Therefore, as for the teachings of the Buddha, if dukkha exists, rūpa and vedanā (and the remaining aggregates of clinging - upādānakkhandha) also should exist, because dukkha is the five aggregates (rūpa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra and viññāṇa).

It is very evident that the Buddha advocated the existence of dukkha and, also, propounded that what he considered as dukkha is the five aggregates, which in turn leads to the inference that five aggregates do exist according to him. Five aggregates are the citta, cetasika and rūpa which were explained above.

In the Puppha Sutta of Saṃyutta Nikāya, the Buddha clearly advocates that he accepts the idea that five aggregates i.e., rūpa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra and viññāṇa, that are impermanent, subject to change and which bring forth suffering do exist.

Moreover, in number of suttas the Buddha has clearly advocated the existence of spiritual qualities such as eight-fold noble path (ariyo aṭṭhaṅgiko maggo), seven factors of enlightenment (satta bojjhaṅgā), four-fold-mindfulness (cattāro satipaṭṭhānā), three types of feeling (tividhā vedanā) and so forth. These are also concrete evidences to prove that according to the Theravāda canon the Buddha himself has propounded the existence of paramatthadhammas.
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Re: Where might one find a refutation of Vasubandhu and Yogacara, as devastating as Betty and others papers on Nagarjuna

Post by DNS »

Eko Care wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:25 pm
DNS wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:09 pm There is nothing permanent, there is anatta. So do we exist or do we not exist?
Not "we", but "momentary khandas" exist.
Or in other words "dukkha" exist.

(Concepts/Pannattis like "we" doesn't exist,
Realities/Paramatthas like "Khandas" do exist.)

See here:
Evidences for Objective Reality
:thumbsup: thanks, I agree with that.
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Eko Care
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Re: Where might one find a refutation of Vasubandhu and Yogacara, as devastating as Betty and others papers on Nagarjuna

Post by Eko Care »

DNS wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:17 pm
Eko Care wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:25 pm
DNS wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:09 pm There is nothing permanent, there is anatta. So do we exist or do we not exist?
Not "we", but "momentary khandas" exist.
Or in other words "dukkha" exist.

(Concepts/Pannattis like "we" doesn't exist,
Realities/Paramatthas like "Khandas" do exist.)

See here:
Evidences for Objective Reality
:thumbsup: thanks, I agree with that.
:candle:

I see many people agreeing with me these days. :smile:

Unprecedented! :thinking:
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Dan74
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Re: Where might one find a refutation of Vasubandhu and Yogacara, as devastating as Betty and others papers on Nagarjuna

Post by Dan74 »

Justsit wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:04 pm
Dan74 wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:05 pm A very common misunderstanding of Nagarjuna is that he was a nihilist. He was at pains to make it clear that he was making no statements about the ostensible reality "out there", postulating any position on its existence or non existence. Rather his aim was to demonstrate that entities, the way we conceive of them, make no sense, just like the concept of self, to be specific, doesn't. So to equate him to nihilism is to miss the point entirely. Nagarjuna is about relinquishing grasping onto the self, objects, theories and concepts, because they are empty designations, fictions, sometimes useful, other times harmful, but not to be clung to, in any case.
Good post.

Also, good to see you here, Dan. Miss your input on the other DW.
:hello: Answered in a PM.
_/|\_
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