Future perils of Buddhism.

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SarathW
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Future perils of Buddhism.

Post by SarathW »

Future perils of Buddhism. The decline of dispensation.
Future perils no. 3 sutta from AN (5.79). In the third peril section Sutta mentions ‘dark dhamma’ – what is meant by that. Recommended reading: ‘Vedalla suttas’ from MN (MN 43 and 44)
Ven Gampaha Pemasiri talked about how Buddhism will be declined in the future.

He specially mentioned the tendency for rejecting Abhidhamma among many other things.
He equates a person who does not know Abhidhamma to a blind elephant in the middle of the jungle.

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DNS
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Re: Future perils of Buddhism.

Post by DNS »

I believe "dark Dhamma" is referring to the corruption of the teachings.

I think Buddhism will decline, but not because of lack of acceptance of the Abhidhamma. I'd imagine 99% or so of all buddhists haven't read any of the Abhidhamma or even the summary, Abhidhammattha-sangaha.

I think Buddhism will decline, like most religions will, due to increased secularization. The fastest growing religion is the unaffiliated; agnostics and atheists. Christianity will have the largest net decline as people leave that religion, mostly for the unaffiliated group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of ... ure_change
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Future perils of Buddhism.

Post by Ceisiwr »

DNS wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:23 pm I believe "dark Dhamma" is referring to the corruption of the teachings.

I think Buddhism will decline, but not because of lack of acceptance of the Abhidhamma. I'd imagine 99% or so of all buddhists haven't read any of the Abhidhamma or even the summary, Abhidhammattha-sangaha.

I think Buddhism will decline, like most religions will, due to increased secularization. The fastest growing religion is the unaffiliated; agnostics and atheists. Christianity will have the largest net decline as people leave that religion, mostly for the unaffiliated group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_of ... ure_change
Yes I see the increasing secularisation of the Dhamma as being the condition for it’s eventual decline. The drive by some to make the Dhamma palpable to a secular western audience is in part driving it, as is the tendency to turn everything in the Dhamma into a form of psychology.
“In the same way, great king, when a bhikkhu sees that these five hindrances are unabandoned within himself, he regards that as a debt, as a sickness, as confinement in prison, as slavery, as a desert road. But when he sees that these five hindrances have been abandoned within himself, he regards that as freedom from debt, as good health, as release from prison, as freedom from slavery, as a place of safety.”

Sāmaññaphala sutta
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retrofuturist
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Re: Future perils of Buddhism.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:04 pm Ven Gampaha Pemasiri talked about how Buddhism will be declined in the future.

He specially mentioned the tendency for rejecting Abhidhamma among many other things.
He equates a person who does not know Abhidhamma to a blind elephant in the middle of the jungle.
Clearly the venerable is very partisan, and (due to the Abhidhamma's concept of paramattha dhammas)
his words blatantly and directly contradict the Ani Sutta. They are diametrically opposed. The Ani Sutta is a better source of wisdom on the future perils than your monk of the month.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
SarathW
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Re: Future perils of Buddhism.

Post by SarathW »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 11:02 pm Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:04 pm Ven Gampaha Pemasiri talked about how Buddhism will be declined in the future.

He specially mentioned the tendency for rejecting Abhidhamma among many other things.
He equates a person who does not know Abhidhamma to a blind elephant in the middle of the jungle.
Clearly the venerable is very partisan, and (due to the Abhidhamma's concept of paramattha dhammas)
his words blatantly contradict the Ani Sutta. The Ani Sutta is a better source of wisdom on the future perils than your monk of the month.

Metta,
Paul. :)
I know you continue to object to Abhidhamma.
As a friend the only suggestion to you is to make an effort to learn Abhidhamma.

I can recall Mike asked me to study Sutta about ten years back. It was great advise and I do not regret taking his advice.

This venerable spent six years studying Abhidhamma and he said he has only just a glimpse of that.
I also spent countless hours studying Abhidhamma Sangathan and finally got a glimpse of it.
Yes, I listen to many different monks and I accept or reject many of them.
However, I could not find any fault in his teaching so far.
:group:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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retrofuturist
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Re: Future perils of Buddhism.

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sarath,

No thanks, I'll stick to the Buddha's teachings... inclusive of the Ani Sutta, Simsapa Sutta and the four great references of the Mahaparinibbana Sutta. You're welcome to enjoy your scholastic sectarian treatises masquerading as Buddhavacana, if that makes you happy.

All the best.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
Pasindu
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Re: Future perils of Buddhism.

Post by Pasindu »

11th dream of king Kosol
"I saw rancid buttermilk being bartered for precious sandalwood worth a fortune in gold. This was my eleventh dream. What shall come of it?"

"This will happen only in the distant future, when my teaching is waning. In those days, there will be many greedy, shameless bhikkhus, who for the sake of their bellies dare to preach the very words in which I have warned against greed! Because they desert the Truth to gratify their stomachs, and because they sided with sectarians, their preaching will not lead to Nibbana. Their only thought as they preach will be to use fine words and sweet voices to induce lay believers to give them costly robes, delicate food, and every comfort. Others will seat themselves beside the highways, at busy street corners, or at the doors of kings' palaces where they will stoop to preach for money, even for a pittance! Thus these monks will barter away for food, for robes, or for coins, my teaching which leads to liberation from suffering! They will be like those who exchanged precious sandalwood worth a fortune in pure gold for rancid buttermilk. However, you have nothing to fear from this. Tell me your twelfth dream."
While gaining plenty of quantity(followers) due to the popularity, buddhism will definitly lack quality in the future. This may be because monks catering to the lay followers by oversimplifying dharma, dropping the complex parts or bending the dharma facts (like karma) to justify lay followers lifestyles.
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zerotime
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Re: Future perils of Buddhism.

Post by zerotime »

DNS wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 10:23 pm I think Buddhism will decline, like most religions will, due to increased secularization.
yes. Also secularization fits better in the present involution of the human mind. Reflective thought is decreasing as also the capacity to sustain the frustration in a learning process. Today there is young people experiencing anguish when some reading or explanation last more than 2 minutes.

Conssumption of excessive images at an high speed and without reflection is a characteristic of the present botched technological design. The consequences are explained many times like a neurological adaptative evoution, while in fact this is a clear involution. Perceiving the world with shorter reflective time is closer to animals than humans.

TikTok could be a good example of both things. In that place the stupidity grows at proportional speed to the quantity of unconnected images to be consumed. Only goal is to cause feelings at high speed, therefore the words starts to dissapear while the images with new stupidities should surpass the previous one. At the end there is like an animal spectacle, like a virtual jail replete of strange apes.

For sure there is a different way to expand the technology, although probably the greedy design of this civilization condition that.
dharmacorps
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Re: Future perils of Buddhism.

Post by dharmacorps »

Buddhism as far as I can see is going to decrease due to counterfeit dhamma. The counterfeit is due to commercialism for the most part.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Future perils of Buddhism.

Post by Sam Vara »

I think one overlooked reason for the decline of Buddhism is the Western craving for creativity. Of course, we all have our own "take" on the Dhamma, but there are so many books and articles out there where people, often with the best of intentions, want to present something which is "theirs", a new way of seeing it which readers can be grateful for. Two examples of what I mean are Tara Brach and her "RAIN" thingie, and Stephen Batchelor, who has a positive lust for vibrant new readings which everyone else was too stupid to see. This type of creativity is greatly valued in the West; come up with something new, and people will praise you.

The resultant blurring of concepts and multiple narratives will mean that the Dhamma will eventually melt away into background spirituality and therapy like a block of ice in warm water.
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Post by sunnat »

Having found the path one realises that The Blessed one presents it as simply as possible. It is the student and potential student that are complicated. The tendency is not to take the teachings at face value but because of underlying tendencies of greed, hatred and ignorance, with a mind full of doubt, distrust, delusions and book learning, the person coming in contact with the teaching will look for the hidden meaning or the meaning that resonates with particular delusions while the actual meaning is just as presented. However, even there, because the path IS good in the beginning for everyone turning in its direction, with repeated, persistent, patient attempts there is progress and slowly the delusions fall away. Understanding deepens and the path is found to be good in the middle. Avoiding mental chatter and the attendant tendencies to complicate the simple the goal is in time reached showing the path is good at the end as well.
SarathW
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Re: Future perils of Buddhism.

Post by SarathW »

From my experience, this is why Buddhism is in decline in Sri Lanka.

- Sensual pleasures are valued more than spiritual attainments.
- Lack of good teachers who understand the teaching
- The liberal attitude of the Buddhists.

Having said this I still think Buddhism will be flourished by the year 2050
that Buddhism will be the only religion that will survive by the year 2050 and that scientists cannot hammer it down or destroy it. :idea:

viewtopic.php?t=16297&hilit=2050
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Future perils of Buddhism.

Post by TRobinson465 »

Dark Dhamma has already happened and has been happening for hundreds of years. Just like how the world jokes that Americans think the world revolves around us, western and english speaking Buddhists seem to think Buddhism in the West is the only Buddhism in the world and the common point of reference despite 99% of Buddhists not practicing western forms of Buddhism. you see dark Dhamma in Asia already where Buddhism has declined, not in stats, but in quality. Buddhist temples holding fairs, predicting lottery numbers, doing black magic tattoos. IMO some of these things are much darker than mere secularization and bending of the ethics of Buddhism. Although that is likely to happen too. Ive already met Buddhists online who legitimately think abortion is not an act of killing according to Buddhism (not that it shouldnt be illegal, legitimately thinking its not an act of killing according to Buddhism)
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
SarathW
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Re: Future perils of Buddhism.

Post by SarathW »

TRobinson465 wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:12 am Dark Dhamma has already happened and has been happening for hundreds of years. Just like how the world jokes that Americans think the world revolves around us, western and english speaking Buddhists seem to think Buddhism in the West is the only Buddhism in the world and the common point of reference despite 99% of Buddhists not practicing western forms of Buddhism. you see dark Dhamma in Asia already where Buddhism has declined, not in stats, but in quality. Buddhist temples holding fairs, predicting lottery numbers, doing black magic tattoos. IMO some of these things are much darker than mere secularization and bending of the ethics of Buddhism. Although that is likely to happen too. Ive already met Buddhists online who legitimately think abortion is not an act of killing according to Buddhism (not that it shouldnt be illegal, legitimately thinking its not an act of killing according to Buddhism)
You don't have to look hard for it. Ven Ahahan Braham preaches that life begins only three months after conception! Not to mention his views that Abhidhamma is not Buddha's teaching.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Future perils of Buddhism.

Post by jinic »

Aṅguttara NikāyaBook of the Twos2.46. Bombast

“Monks, there are these two assemblies. Which two? The assembly trained in bombast and not in cross-questioning, and the assembly trained in cross-questioning and not in bombast.

“And which is the assembly trained in bombast and not in cross-questioning?

“There is the case where in any assembly when the discourses of the Tathagata—deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness—are recited, the monks don’t listen, don’t lend ear, don’t set their hearts on knowing them; don’t regard them as worth grasping or mastering. But when discourses that are literary works—the works of poets, artful in sound, artful in expression, the work of outsiders, words of disciples—are recited, they listen, they lend ear, they set their hearts on knowing them; they regard them as worth grasping & mastering. Yet when they have mastered that Dhamma, they don’t cross-question one another about it, don’t dissect: ‘How is this? What is the meaning of this?’ They don’t make open what isn’t open, don’t make plain what isn’t plain, don’t dispel doubt on its various doubtful points. This is called an assembly trained in bombast, not in cross-questioning.

“And which is the assembly trained in cross-questioning and not in bombast?

“There is the case where in any assembly when discourses that are literary works—the works of poets, artful in sound, artful in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples—are recited, the monks don’t listen, don’t lend ear, don’t set their hearts on knowing them; don’t regard them as worth grasping or mastering. But when the discourses of the Tathagata—deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness—are recited, they listen, they lend ear, they set their hearts on knowing them; they regard them as worth grasping & mastering. And when they have mastered that Dhamma, they cross-question one another about it and dissect it: ‘How is this? What is the meaning of this?’ They make open what isn’t open, make plain what isn’t plain, dispel doubt on its various doubtful points. This is called an assembly trained in cross-questioning and not in bombast.”
Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, there once was a time when the Dasarahas had a large drum called 'Summoner.' Whenever Summoner was split, the Dasarahas inserted another peg in it, until the time came when Summoner's original wooden body had disappeared and only a conglomeration of pegs remained. [1]

"In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.

"In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — will come about.

"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves."
Sn20.07
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