MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation of

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Joe.c
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by Joe.c »

frank k wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:37 am ...
Hey Frank,

Have you relook MN 19 and combine MN 125 to your understanding.

Original article.

You might see how:

Indeed MN 19 is not so linear. It is back and forth to make clear the overlap steps.

1. Actively removing/preventing 3 bad thoughts to manifest & generate/maintain 3 good thoughts to enter/maintain 1st jhana.

2. Then after successful with 1st jhana, Actively stilling of vitakka vicara of 3 good thoughts to enter/maintain 2nd jhana. Because maintaining vitakka vicara is tiring the body/mind in the long run.

Then the MN 125 support it.
MN 125 wrote:
Then the Realized One guides them further: ‘Come, mendicant, dwell seeing an aspect of the body as the body, but don’t think thoughts connected with sensual pleasures. Dwell seeing an aspect of feelings … citta … dhamma, but don’t think thoughts connected with sensual pleasures.’

As the thinking and pondering are stilled, they enter and remain in the second jhana … third jhana … fourth jhana.
Now the samadhi part of N8FP include samma vayama (effort), samma sati (introspection to within) and samma samadhi (balance).

If one is successful in development of Samadhi part of N8FP, it is possible to maintain it for 24/7. Which should support your Jhana is life.
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by Johann »

Lokuttaro is of course not something that's just something those having reached that erea, just dwell at formal sitting. It's popular under teaching householder or business-monks, traders of all kind and dwelling outwardly, to suggest such things.

But again, as some already suggested here, toward householder Frank the trampling elephant in a porcelain store, wise to leave harsher words up those who have left porcelain stores, do not depend on them.

And no, the idea to maintain Jhana while in a common householder living, is of course also a dream, mostly as well comming from certain "just" arupa-attainings, mistaken as the Jhanas of the Noble Ones. Very common, btw.
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by Joe.c »

Johann wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:24 am Lokuttaro is of course not something that's just something those having reached that erea, just dwell at formal sitting. It's popular under teaching householder or business-monks, traders of all kind and dwelling outwardly, to suggest such things.
Buddha meditation is not only formal sitting. Those are just for a beginner. Buddha meditation is 24/7 maintaining N8FP including sila, samadhi and panna.

Who say Buddha meditation is outward only? It start from outward (sila), then bring inward (samadhi), and then panna.
But again, as some already suggested here, toward householder Frank the trampling elephant in a porcelain store, wise to leave harsher words up those who have left porcelain stores, do not depend on them.
Well keep going higher, you will see who is impure. Don’t let the mountain block your sight.
And no, the idea to maintain Jhana while in a common householder living, is of course also a dream, mostly as well comming from certain "just" arupa-attainings, mistaken as the Jhanas of the Noble Ones. Very common, btw.
Lol. Have you heard about Citta or Hatthaka of Alavi or many more of non returner householders?

Of course, their life will be as similar to a monk by then. See SN 41, AN 8.23, etc.

Once one has attained/maintained samma sati/samadhi 24/7, they will be repel by any of the 5 senses activities such as regular householder works such as job, money, family, house, etc.

Btw, try to comprehend your writing as well. Sometime it is difficult for people to understand you.
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by Johann »

Joe.c wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:44 am
Johann wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:24 am Lokuttaro is of course not something that's just something those having reached that erea, just dwell at formal sitting. It's popular under teaching householder or business-monks, traders of all kind and dwelling outwardly, to suggest such things.
Buddha meditation is not only formal sitting. Those are just for a beginner. Buddha meditation is 24/7 maintaining N8FP including sila, samadhi and panna.
Right so, good householder
Who say Buddha meditation is outward only? It start from outward (sila), then bring inward (samadhi), and then panna.
People say much. And no, it starts by right view, good householder, and does not end by wisdom but by release.
But again, as some already suggested here, toward householder Frank the trampling elephant in a porcelain store, wise to leave harsher words up those who have left porcelain stores, do not depend on them.
Well keep going higher, you will see who is impure. Don’t let the mountain block your sight.
It's not the purpose to see impure, to take this path, but to leave impure behind, good householder. Mountains aren't hindrances on this way, the five evil friends, nivaranas, are.
And no, the idea to maintain Jhana while in a common householder living, is of course also a dream, mostly as well comming from certain "just" arupa-attainings, mistaken as the Jhanas of the Noble Ones. Very common, btw.
Lol. Have you heard about Citta or Hatthaka of Alavi or many more of non returner householders?
Has good householder ever met?
Of course, their life will be as similar to a monk by then. See SN 41, AN 8.23, etc.
As told, it's because people far away live simply fictions, that many ideas grow.
Once one has attained/maintained samma sati/samadhi 24/7, they will be repel by any of the 5 senses activities such as regular householder works such as job, money, family, house, etc.
Some mistake the Uposatha of the Jains with lokuttara, sure. Not same, many, out there.
Btw, try to comprehend your writing as well. Sometime it is difficult for people to understand you.
Effort toward proper attention merits a lot. Mudita
Joe.c
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by Joe.c »

Johann wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:04 am People say much. And no, it starts by right view, good householder, and does not end by wisdom but by release.
Hm.. you are just playing with words without looking at my reply. Panna is including samma ditthi. All ariya levels depends on the panna. There is no release without wisdom, those are interchangeable.

Btw do you know how to enter the stream or attain right view?

Wondering alone without friend/teacher is similar to outsider (bahira). There are so many jain (nigantha), ajivika that done that during Buddha time. Are you one of them as well?
you wrote: It's not the purpose to see impure, to take this path, but to leave impure behind, good householder. Mountains aren't hindrances on this way, the five evil friends, nivaranas, are.
Looks like you don’t understand my reply. All Impure will be rejected and left in Samsara.😀😀😀

How can you understand nivaranas if you haven’t got any right view, perfected morality and perfected sense restraints?
you wrote:Has good householder ever met?
No, but I know which path and how they walk the path. Do you know the complete path?
you wrote:As told, it's because people far away live simply fictions, that many ideas grow.
Well your search might be a fiction too. Without hearing true dhamma from ariyas, there is no right view. Do you know that?
you wrote:Some mistake the Uposatha of the Jains with lokuttara, sure. Not same, many, out there.
Don’t get into generalization without seeing/knowing personally. It is just your papanca.

Anyway, good luck.
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by asahi »

In a person of right view, right resolve comes into being. In a person of right resolve, right speech. In a person of right speech, right action. In a person of right action, right livelihood. In a person of right livelihood, right effort. In a person of right effort, right mindfulness. In a person of right mindfulness, right concentration. In a person of right concentration, right knowledge. In a person of right knowledge, right release.

Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu develops right view, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release…. He develops right concentration, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release.

It seems right knowledge is Panna , right release is liberation or freedom .
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by frank k »

I've written a ton of articles on MN 125, MN 19, and related suttas.
MN 125 for example:
http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... 125_3.html

https://lucid24.org/mn/mn125/index.html#3.10.3
and parallel
https://lucid24.org/agama/ma/ma198/index.html
If you see my annotated tranlsations of the suttas, it spells out the vitakka and jhāna implications.

MN 125, MN 78, MN 19 and MN 20 together all make it clear and incontrovertible that vitakka is linguistic verbal thought.
MN 125 alone is enough to rest the case, since it explicitly equates satipatthana done with vitakka devoid of kāma vitakka with first jhāna, and since one uses lingustic thought in satipatthana, then the vitakka in first jhāna is also linguistc since it's also satipatthana.

Suttas like MN 119, AN 8.63, SN 47.4, are also pretty much explicitly saying one does jhāna with satipatthana concurrently, 24/7, in all postures.


Please refer to the navigation bar (top line of screen) for my sutta translations:
4👑☸ → MN‍ → MN 125 - 🔗🔊 || MA 198 🌄🐘🛡️🏹🔗📝 🔝

when you see the symbol 🔗📝, it has link to articles analyzing the sutta.

Joe.c wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:03 am
frank k wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 11:37 am ...
Hey Frank,

Have you relook MN 19 and combine MN 125 to your understanding.

Original article.

You might see how:

Indeed MN 19 is not so linear. It is back and forth to make clear the overlap steps.

1. Actively removing/preventing 3 bad thoughts to manifest & generate/maintain 3 good thoughts to enter/maintain 1st jhana.

2. Then after successful with 1st jhana, Actively stilling of vitakka vicara of 3 good thoughts to enter/maintain 2nd jhana. Because maintaining vitakka vicara is tiring the body/mind in the long run.

Then the MN 125 support it.
MN 125 wrote:
Then the Realized One guides them further: ‘Come, mendicant, dwell seeing an aspect of the body as the body, but don’t think thoughts connected with sensual pleasures. Dwell seeing an aspect of feelings … citta … dhamma, but don’t think thoughts connected with sensual pleasures.’

As the thinking and pondering are stilled, they enter and remain in the second jhana … third jhana … fourth jhana.
Now the samadhi part of N8FP include samma vayama (effort), samma sati (introspection to within) and samma samadhi (balance).

If one is successful in development of Samadhi part of N8FP, it is possible to maintain it for 24/7. Which should support your Jhana is life.
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by frank k »

Johann wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 8:04 am ...
Just my feedback, no offense intended:

Many people have publicly commented on the difficulty in understanding your writing.
I'd always assumed it was because English is not your primary language, but that's just my guess.
I have not responded to many of your messages directed to me because I'm not certain what you mean.
I think it would good for you to get some feedback from fluent English speakers before you post for some editing and clarification, otherwise we see this pattern on the forum of many people responding to your messages without perhaps really understanding what you're saying and assuming you're being argumentative.
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by Johann »

No problem at all, good householder, and Sadhu for care.

Atma doesn't worry at all that those who could understand Dhamma are handicapped and others not further burdened in amassing "real".

May he don't burn himself off here, times running, and not easy to develop especially mudita fully.

Seeing water in the well clear, and then finally get it, or at least outwardly bond, are still huge differents. Even 7/24 hours just the basic 6 reflections are hard to maintain if within improper enviroment.
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by Joe.c »

frank k wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 4:31 pm ...
Ok. Looks good. I enjoy your site. Not many people dedicate their time for translating. :-)

But as always remember to revisit the sutta again & again. Sometime it may give you more insights especially when your faculties have been developed (which take time btw).

As always remember to maintain what is good and throw out what is not good.
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by asahi »

Hi frank , i try to figure out whats wrong with the translation . Could you help a bit where are the mistake ?
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by frank k »

I don't understand your question. What's wrong with WHICH translation, what WHAT do you think is wrong with it?
Also, please post the links to the full source. I can't tell from screen shots where the source you're quoting from is.
asahi wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:50 am Hi frank , i try to figure out whats wrong with the translation . Could you help a bit where are the mistake ?

Screenshot_20220924-154758_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20220924-154737_Chrome.jpg
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by asahi »

frank k wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:03 am I don't understand your question. What's wrong with WHICH translation, what WHAT do you think is wrong with it?
Also, please post the links to the full source. I can't tell from screen shots where the source you're quoting from is.
asahi wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:50 am Hi frank , i try to figure out whats wrong with the translation . Could you help a bit where are the mistake ?

Screenshot_20220924-154758_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20220924-154737_Chrome.jpg
It was from your source , how come didnt you recognise from your own blog ? I mean what wrongs with analayo translation of ma 102 ? From your blog as screen shot above .

http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... s-for.html
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by Joe.c »

He explained it near the end.
Frank’s website wrote: So this basically blows away B. Analayo's fraudulent translation of jue and guan in first jhana as [directed] awareness and [sustained] contemplation.

Which leads to this logical absurdity. Once first jhana ends, one would not be able to satipatthana in 2nd jhana or above, because one is now without vitakka and vicara (B. Analayo's 'contemplation')
When there is no vitakka vicara (if vicara is translated as contemplation by Analayo) how can people continue the satipatthana practice in the 2nd jhana & above as described in MN 125.

—>So satipatthana is not about contemplation about 4 objects but aware/attend to the 4 objects. Otherwise there is no possibility to do satipatthana for 2nd jhana and above, because vicara is absent by then.

So vicara shouldn’t be translated as contemplation.
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Re: MA 101 and MA 102, the agama parallels for MN 19 and MN 20 are prime examples of B. Analayo's fraudulent translation

Post by frank k »

Joe maybe already answered your question.
Of course I recognize a portion of my blog posting, but I have thousands of posts, and I don't know which one and exactly what specific issue you were questioning.
The blog of mine you quoted, the jhana pali/chinese you screen capped, that's not analayo's translation, that's my translation of first jhana with correct vitakka and vicara.
Analayo translates those two chinese words for V&V into something much closer in spirit to Vism. and Sujato (frozen disembodied stupor "jhāna" with mind in a coma), with no basis in Chinese source, sanskrit source, or reality.
It's basically confirmation bias.
He starts out with a (wrong) conclusion, and reinterprets and mistranslates the Chinese to fit his wrong view.
Worse, when his error is pointed out by Chinese and Buddhist experts much more qualified than him, he still denies his wrong doing.
Even worse still, he abuses his power as editor in chief to push his wrong view and make sure all the translators working on the agama translation project are translating with his wrong translation of vitakka and vicara.
asahi wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:39 pm
frank k wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 11:03 am I don't understand your question. What's wrong with WHICH translation, what WHAT do you think is wrong with it?
Also, please post the links to the full source. I can't tell from screen shots where the source you're quoting from is.
asahi wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:50 am Hi frank , i try to figure out whats wrong with the translation . Could you help a bit where are the mistake ?

Screenshot_20220924-154758_Chrome.jpg

Screenshot_20220924-154737_Chrome.jpg
It was from your source , how come didnt you recognise from your own blog ? I mean what wrongs with analayo translation of ma 102 ? From your blog as screen shot above .

http://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/20 ... s-for.html
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
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