Basically, when you ask this question, you are distrusting what we have and then you are on the quest for Buddhavajana

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Eko Care
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Basically, when you ask this question, you are distrusting what we have and then you are on the quest for Buddhavajana

Post by Eko Care »

Question wrote:Is any existing modern tradition of Buddhism in line with “original” buddhism as defined by the suttas and commentaries? Im pretty sure most all of them deviate in one way or the other. Its more just that some deviate more than others.
Answer wrote:Basically, when you ask this question, you are distrusting what we have and then you are on the quest for Buddhavajana (Ajahn Kukrit), EBT Ajahn Sujato, ven Ariyadhammika, ven Analayo, etc.
suttacentral and dhammawheel are better groups for this quest.

There is not such thing as modern group… because it is seeking to find only the oldest which is impossible to know and just makes one roam in the doubt realms.

Classical Theravada does not concern itself with these fringe groups.
https://classicaltheravada.org/t/modern ... ana/342/20

Yes, there is no such thing as modern group… other than the ones just make one roam in the doubt realms.
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Re: Basically, when you ask this question, you are distrusting what we have and then you are on the quest for Buddhavaja

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Why are you recreating topics from other forums here? For what purpose?

You have no topic question, so this isn't really a discussion topic. It's just saying stuff... that would be better suited to a blog.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Eko Care
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Re: Basically, when you ask this question, you are distrusting what we have and then you are on the quest for Buddhavaja

Post by Eko Care »

Ok, let me specify the questions,

Will a quest for Original Buddhavajana by an ordinary man be easily successful?
What would his faith be during this quest?
Isn't faith a necessary quality for learning Dhamma along with wisdom?
Aren't there phenomena that lead to increase doubts if one associate them for a long time?
What is the base (acceptable reasons) for distrusting what we have?
Which way does satisfy the criteria for recognizing Dhamma preached to Gotami?
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Re: Basically, when you ask this question, you are distrusting what we have and then you are on the quest for Buddhavaja

Post by DNS »

Eko Care wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 5:48 pm Ok, let me specify the questions,
You are asking the above with the title of this thread, so I assume you are questioning why or how could anyone question the exact words of the Tipitaka and Commentaries, why can't they just have faith?

How is that different from the fundamentalist Christian who says:
fundamentalist Christian wrote:It's in the Bible, God said it, I believe it, That settles it, Case closed!
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Eko Care
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Re: Basically, when you ask this question, you are distrusting what we have and then you are on the quest for Buddhavaja

Post by Eko Care »

DNS wrote: Sat Sep 24, 2022 7:34 pm How is that different from the fundamentalist Christian who says:
fundamentalist Christian wrote:It's in the Bible, God said it, I believe it, That settles it, Case closed!
The Buddha said one needs to have both faith and wisdom factors.

Fundamentalist Christian has only the faith factor. (blind)
This is an extreme.

On the other hand:

If one is on a quest, he has only the wisdom factor. (if available)
'Quest' means no confidence in any kind of 'set of fundamentals'. In order to have (any kind of) faith, one needs to have a stable ground.
This is the other extreme.
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Re: Basically, when you ask this question, you are distrusting what we have and then you are on the quest for Buddhavaja

Post by User13866 »

Will a quest for Original Buddhavajana by an ordinary man be easily successful?
What would his faith be during this quest?
Isn't faith a necessary quality for learning Dhamma along with wisdom?
Aren't there phenomena that lead to increase doubts if one associate them for a long time?
What is the base (acceptable reasons) for distrusting what we have?
Which way does satisfy the criteria for recognizing Dhamma preached to Gotami?
In general, when looking for coaching, one needs to find people in whom one can place one's faith. A righteous person wouldn't require one to submit without investigation and would welcome scrutiny because it will just make them look good having been tested.

Faith is most important for visiting.
We ask Master Gotama about the quality most helpful for the final attainment of the truth."

"Exertion is most helpful for the final attainment of the truth, Bharadvaja. If one didn't make an exertion, one wouldn't finally attain the truth. Because one makes an exertion, one finally attains the truth. Therefore, exertion is most helpful for the final attainment of the truth."

"But what quality is most helpful for exertion? We ask Master Gotama about the quality most helpful for exertion."

"Contemplating is most helpful for exertion, Bharadvaja. If one didn't contemplate, one wouldn't make an exertion. Because one contemplates, one makes an exertion. Therefore, contemplating is most helpful for exertion."

"But what quality is most helpful for contemplating?..."

"Being willing... If one weren't willing, one wouldn't contemplate..."

"But what quality is most helpful for being willing?..."

"Desire... If desire didn't arise, one wouldn't be willing..."

"But what quality is most helpful for desire?..."

"Coming to an agreement through pondering dhammas... If one didn't come to an agreement through pondering dhammas, desire wouldn't arise..."

"But what quality is most helpful for coming to an agreement through pondering dhammas?..."

"Penetrating the meaning... If one didn't penetrate the meaning, one wouldn't come to an agreement through pondering dhammas..."

"But what quality is most helpful for penetrating the meaning?..."

"Remembering the Dhamma... If one didn't remember the Dhamma, one wouldn't penetrate the meaning..."

"But what quality is most helpful for remembering the Dhamma?... "

"Hearing the Dhamma... If one didn't hear the Dhamma, one wouldn't remember the Dhamma..."

"But what quality is most helpful for hearing the Dhamma?... "

"Lending ear... If one didn't lend ear, one wouldn't hear the Dhamma..."

"But what quality is most helpful for lending ear?... "

"Growing close... If one didn't grow close, one wouldn't lend ear..."

"But what quality is most helpful for growing close?... "

"Visiting... If one didn't visit, one wouldn't grow close..."

"But what quality is most helpful for visiting? We ask Master Gotama about the quality most helpful for visiting."

"Conviction is most helpful for visiting, Bharadvaja. If conviction [in a person] didn't arise, one wouldn't visit [that person]. Because conviction arises, one visits. Therefore, conviction is most helpful for visiting."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
It starts with conviction and then there is a growing close. If one had no conviction then there would be no desire to grow close to that person.
We ask Master Gotama about awakening to the truth."

"There is the case, Bharadvaja, where a monk lives in dependence on a certain village or town. Then a householder or householder's son goes to him and observes him with regard to three mental qualities — qualities based on greed, qualities based on aversion, qualities based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on greed that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on greed... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not greedy. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's greedy.

When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on greed, he next observes him with regard to qualities based on aversion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on aversion that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on aversion... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not aversive. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's aversive.

When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on aversion, he next observes him with regard to qualities based on delusion: 'Are there in this venerable one any such qualities based on delusion that, with his mind overcome by these qualities, he might say, "I know," while not knowing, or say, "I see," while not seeing; or that he might urge another to act in a way that was for his/her long-term harm & pain?' As he observes him, he comes to know, 'There are in this venerable one no such qualities based on delusion... His bodily behavior & verbal behavior are those of one not deluded. And the Dhamma he teaches is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, tranquil, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. This Dhamma can't easily be taught by a person who's deluded.

When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on delusion, he places conviction in him. With the arising of conviction, he visits him & grows close to him. Growing close to him, he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he penetrates the meaning of those dhammas. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas. There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing. Willing, he contemplates (lit: "weighs," "compares"). Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment.

"To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. I describe this as an awakening to the truth.
I don't know whether one's quest for Buddhavaccana will be fruitful or not, it's certainly not easy and people go astray where blind is leading the blind saying 'i know & i see'. However i say that the door is open and an awakening to the truth with due exertion is expected for good people who are devoted to truth rather than their self-righteousness.
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Re: Basically, when you ask this question, you are distrusting what we have and then you are on the quest for Buddhavaja

Post by dharmacorps »

You're still using your own yardstick, so you think, to measure others' faith or wisdom. It seems a preoccupation for you That is time best spent focused on yourself. Focus the witch hunt within, if you must.
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Eko Care
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Re: Basically, when you ask this question, you are distrusting what we have and then you are on the quest for Buddhavaja

Post by Eko Care »

Eko Care wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:13 am 'Quest' means no confidence in any kind of 'set of fundamentals'.
In order to have (any kind of) faith, one needs to have a stable ground.
Seeking is needed, but seeking something over Dhamma is not needed.

One commits akusala if he intentionally reject a dhamma without knowing it is dhamma.

Moreover, there is no fair reason to reject the fundamentals of Atthakata.
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Re: Basically, when you ask this question, you are distrusting what we have and then you are on the quest for Buddhavaja

Post by BrokenBones »

Eko Care wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:21 pm
Eko Care wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:13 am 'Quest' means no confidence in any kind of 'set of fundamentals'.
In order to have (any kind of) faith, one needs to have a stable ground.
Seeking is needed, but seeking something over Dhamma is not needed.

One commits akusala if he intentionally reject a dhamma without knowing it is dhamma.

Moreover, there is no fair reason to reject the fundamentals of Atthakata.
All this sounds suspiciously totalitarian. I can't imagine the Buddha declaring that people should just accept what he says without investigation, debate and verification... never mind what people wrote centuries later. Faith is built on such things, not blind adherence. Repeated declarations of infallibility are not the way to go.
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Re: Basically, when you ask this question, you are distrusting what we have and then you are on the quest for Buddhavaja

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:44 pm
Eko Care wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:21 pm
Eko Care wrote: Sun Sep 25, 2022 12:13 am 'Quest' means no confidence in any kind of 'set of fundamentals'.
In order to have (any kind of) faith, one needs to have a stable ground.
Seeking is needed, but seeking something over Dhamma is not needed.

One commits akusala if he intentionally reject a dhamma without knowing it is dhamma.

Moreover, there is no fair reason to reject the fundamentals of Atthakata.
All this sounds suspiciously totalitarian. I can't imagine the Buddha declaring that people should just accept what he says without investigation, debate and verification... never mind what people wrote centuries later. Faith is built on such things, not blind adherence. Repeated declarations of infallibility are not the way to go.
How is it totalitarian?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Basically, when you ask this question, you are distrusting what we have and then you are on the quest for Buddhavaja

Post by analysis »

We need all the 5 Indriyas/Balas to practice Buddhasasana.
They are inside 37 Bodhipakkhiyadhammas.
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