Complexes Vs. Khandas

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Heaviside
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Complexes Vs. Khandas

Post by Heaviside »

It is pretty well known, I think, that Carl Jung was inspired by Eastern thought in developing his psychoanalytic theory, but I have a very specific question.

What is the relationship between Jung's theory of complexes and the Buddhist concept of the khandas?

Any comments would be welcomed.

Thanks.
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SDC
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Re: Complexes Vs. Khandas

Post by SDC »

Do you have a link to a description of Jung’s theory? One that you find preferable.

Also, don’t be surprised if this topic gets moved to the Connections to Other Paths section of the forum.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Complexes Vs. Khandas

Post by Coëmgenu »

I have a very "pop culture" notion of Jung's complexes, so take this with a grain of salt. To the extent that one might be caught up with, obsessing over, attaching to, and/or identifying with the khandhas, then we can say that there is a "complex" concerning any one of them.

The Wikipedia article talks about losing a limb and this effecting all sorts of subsequent notions, reactions to stimuli, and general thought processes. It says that if the effect is negative, there might be a complex surrounding it. It wouldn't be too eccentric IMO to say that this complex would be concerning the rūpakkhandha.
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Jack19990101
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Re: Complexes Vs. Khandas

Post by Jack19990101 »

Heaviside wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:40 pm It is pretty well known, I think, that Carl Jung was inspired by Eastern thought in developing his psychoanalytic theory, but I have a very specific question.

What is the relationship between Jung's theory of complexes and the Buddhist concept of the khandas?

Any comments would be welcomed.

Thanks.
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Jack19990101
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Re: Complexes Vs. Khandas

Post by Jack19990101 »

Jus to dodge digression deep into hairy details - I should add 'roughly, imo'.
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Heaviside
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Re: Complexes Vs. Khandas

Post by Heaviside »

SDC wrote: Tue Sep 20, 2022 9:52 pm Do you have a link to a description of Jung’s theory? One that you find preferable.

Also, don’t be surprised if this topic gets moved to the Connections to Other Paths section of the forum.
Unfortunately, I don't have a link---but ``The Portable Carl Jung'' contains his most important writings. By the way, I made a mistake ``psychoanalysis'' is Freud's term; Jung used the phrase ``analytical psychology.'' :reading:
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SDC
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Re: Complexes Vs. Khandas

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I majored in psychology in college, but stopped short of the intensive writing course that would have qualified me for the degree, so it is always interesting to revisit these ideas and theories all these years later.

To cut right to the chase, the structure of a complex involves that notion of a history, but most significantly, history with a source. That source is critical as the fuel of the complex and, depending on how it is envisioned, it could be understood as a thing that attracts the attention of the current experience (pulls things towards it) or as a container of any experience that falls within its scope. Regardless, it seems to be the quality of association that is the hallmark of a complex: the notion that similar experiences will accumulate as long as they share enough of the same features, thus producing the conditions for similar behaviors as a result.

I think it is important to note what is implied by this notion of the source in our history. Indeed it means that there is some event that may or not be accessible that is understood to be the reason for feelings, moods and behaviors here and now. In other words, the reason for our behavior can be traced backwards through corresponding events, corresponding imagery, to an event (or series of events) that holds the present moment together, gives it meaning and determines how we feel. I think this aligns with the Dhamma only to the extent that memory is grounds for contact, and therefore, feeling. However, it would not align with the Dhamma to identify said event as the source suffering. This is crucial. The reason the feeling is suffering is due to craving for that feeling to be otherwise. The particular trigger of that feeling is not the source of the problem according to the four noble truths. That whole experience - me here and now with a memory juxtaposed - is the issue, not just the memory; not the history; not the initial event; the whole situation is what is unpleasant.

That is not to say that the event that is responsible for a history of unpleasant feeling (another way of describing complexes) is not a source of unpleasant feeling. It is. And reconciling that event (or series of events) can contribute to less intensity of those feelings in the future. But that reconciliation does not imply craving us been dealt with at all. All it means is that the event has been restructured in a way that makes the feeling less intense and therefore the craving less active. So, as much as suffering has been reduced, it has been so to the extent that it is less recognizable (it doesn’t manifest in that place as much anymore). The opening for it, in that particular case, has shrunk, but since it was on account of an alteration of the meaning of an event, and not on account of recognition of the nature of the experience as impermanent, not mine, etc., it is more accurate to say that suffering has been avoided, but not eliminated. Another traumatic event could arise and again be mistook as a reason for suffering. In short, events in time are not the cause of suffering. Events that are not pleasant or not pleasant enough are suffering, with craving as the origin of that suffering.

So, in terms of that accumulation of events corresponding with the five aggregates, it is tough to say. It depends on how broadly the consideration of the aggregates is in such a model. The aggregates cannot be said to be limited to the scope of a particular complex. Certainly, the complex would borrow from the accumulating/heaping that is the nature of the aggregates, but since the heaping spans endless abodes of wandering according to SN 22.79, they cannot be understood as the structure of something so particular. And considering the scope of suffering, it doesn’t emphasize that nature very well if the mind is bent on searching for a solution to that suffering across these various events. However, if we want to make any comparison, it is probably safe to say that that existence is a beginningless complex, with ignorance as the source. And just like a small-time complex isolated to a particular manifestation of suffering, it is the not knowing of the four noble truths that keeps that complex intact. To repeat, it is never going to be an event that is that is the source of suffering, which ultimately puts the Dhamma and psychology at variance.

(Interestingly enough, though, these events can be very helpful. If they are particularly unpleasant, they can be a source of urgency. A source of remembrance for how inherently dangerous life can be. How ultimately perilous. From this knowledge can arise that direction of Dhamma. So, while one entered the process to find the event that is the source of the problem, they didn’t proceed to reshape that event to feel better about it now, they used the available knowledge to develop in a different direction.)
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Heaviside
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Re: Complexes Vs. Khandas

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Interesting commentary, SDC. Thank you.

I have been looking at it the following way. The meeting of a sense object and the corresponding faculty generares contact and vittaka associates these events with a positive, negative, or neutral feeling, thus beginning the formation of a complex. In the future, other neurons enter the picture and extend the complex. Enter the idea of an ``equivalence class''' of neural activity as a complex. A number of these complexes then form a khanda, etc.

I realize this is simply speculation, but I have been wondering if anyone has pursued this thought.
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SDC
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Re: Complexes Vs. Khandas

Post by SDC »

Heaviside wrote: Fri Sep 23, 2022 6:57 pm Interesting commentary, SDC. Thank you.

I have been looking at it the following way. The meeting of a sense object and the corresponding faculty generares contact and vittaka associates these events with a positive, negative, or neutral feeling, thus beginning the formation of a complex. In the future, other neurons enter the picture and extend the complex. Enter the idea of an ``equivalence class''' of neural activity as a complex. A number of these complexes then form a khanda, etc.

I realize this is simply speculation, but I have been wondering if anyone has pursued this thought.
I think speculation can be helpful as long as it is understood as formative and not something that can stand directly for the meaning. I think your analysis touches on the traces of the aggregates - I say “traces” because you seem to be describing a recounting of how things were attended and not necessarily the full scope of the experience, i.e. excluding what was attended with the right perspective (if attended at all). That is what a complex represents, but I think it is important to remember that aggregates don’t have a separate, case-by-case existence. They do “come and go” in their prominence, but I don’t think it is correct to say those comings and goings are anything other than the result of the scope of attention and therefore should not be particularized for analysis, as if to imply a distinct existence from any aggregates that came before or will come after (SN 22.79).
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Heaviside
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Re: Complexes Vs. Khandas

Post by Heaviside »

Since my posting, I have discovered an entire book on this topic: Why Buddhism is True, by Robert Wright. He uses the term ``module'' instead of ``complex.'' Thanks to everyone who commented.
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