Visuddhimagga, Jhāna, sense-conciousness and Infinite Space

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Ceisiwr
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Visuddhimagga, Jhāna, sense-conciousness and Infinite Space

Post by Ceisiwr »

I was re-reading the Visuddhimagga again today when I came across an interesting passage, where Venerable Buddhaghosa seems to consider that it's possible for 5 sensory conciousness to arise whilst in Jhāna
16. With the disappearance of perceptions of resistance: perceptions of resistance are perceptions arisen through the impact of the physical base consisting of the eye, etc., and the respective objects consisting of visible objects etc.; and this is a term for perception of visible objects (rúpa) and so on, according as it is said:

“Here, what are perceptions of resistance? Perceptions of visible objectss, perceptions of sounds, perceptions of odours, perceptions of flavours, perceptions of tangible objects—these are called ‘perceptions of resistance’” (Vibh 261)

with the complete disappearance, the abandoning, the non-arising, of these ten kinds of perceptions of resistance, that is to say, of the five profitable-resultant and five unprofitable-resultant;6 causing their non-occurrence, is what is meant.
17. Of course, these are not to be found in one who has entered upon the first jhána, etc., either; for consciousness at that time does not occur by way of the five doors. Still [330] the mention of them here should be understood as a recommendation of this jhána for the purpose of arousing interest in it, just as in the case of the fourth jhána there is mention of the pleasure and pain already abandoned elsewhere, and in the case of the third path there is mention of the [false] view of personality, etc., already abandoned earlier.
18. Or alternatively, though these are also not to be found in one who has attained the fine-material sphere, still their not being there is not due to their having been abandoned; for development of the fine-material sphere does not lead to fading of greed for materiality, and the occurrence of those [fine-material jhánas] is actually dependent on materiality. But this development [of the immaterial] does lead to the fading of greed for materiality. Therefore it is allowable to say that they are actually abandoned here; and not only to say it, but to maintain it absolutely.
19. In fact it is because they have not been abandoned already before this that it was said by the Blessed One that sound is a thorn to one who has the first jhána (A V 135). And it is precisely because they are abandoned here that the imperturbability (see Vibh 135) of the immaterial attainments and their state of peaceful liberation are mentioned (M I 33), and that Á¿ára Káláma neither saw the five hundred carts that passed close by him nor heard the sound of them while he was in an immaterial attainment (D II 130).
Visuddhimagga - CHAPTER X The Immaterial State

As ever Venerable Buddhaghosa is more than willing to acknowledge different points of view and interpretations.
“In the same way, great king, when a bhikkhu sees that these five hindrances are unabandoned within himself, he regards that as a debt, as a sickness, as confinement in prison, as slavery, as a desert road.

“But when he sees that these five hindrances have been abandoned within himself, he regards that as freedom from debt, as good health, as release from prison, as freedom from slavery, as a place of safety.”


Sāmaññaphalasutta
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Eko Care
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Re: Visuddhimagga, Jhāna, sense-conciousness and Infinite Space

Post by Eko Care »

it was said by the Blessed One that sound is a thorn to one who has the first jhána (A V 135).
When a big sound comes,
Ear consciousness is considered to be arisen, after the jhana minds stopped.

He awake from jhana and hears sound.

Otherwise it is not a thorn to jhana.
BrokenBones
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Re: Visuddhimagga, Jhāna, sense-conciousness and Infinite Space

Post by BrokenBones »

It comes across as a hot mess. A rabbit hole entered with no wiggle room except prevarication.
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nirodh27
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Re: Visuddhimagga, Jhāna, sense-conciousness and Infinite Space

Post by nirodh27 »

Hi Ceisiwr,

Nice discovery, thanks for sharing.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Visuddhimagga, Jhāna, sense-conciousness and Infinite Space

Post by Ceisiwr »

nirodh27 wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:26 am Hi Ceisiwr,

Nice discovery, thanks for sharing.
No problem. I’m going to make a post on Jhana and anapanasati soon. I’ve had some new thoughts about the subject.
“In the same way, great king, when a bhikkhu sees that these five hindrances are unabandoned within himself, he regards that as a debt, as a sickness, as confinement in prison, as slavery, as a desert road.

“But when he sees that these five hindrances have been abandoned within himself, he regards that as freedom from debt, as good health, as release from prison, as freedom from slavery, as a place of safety.”


Sāmaññaphalasutta
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