Is karma 100% of things ? karma VS 5 Niyamas

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
greentree
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2022 9:14 pm

Is karma 100% of things ? karma VS 5 Niyamas

Post by greentree »

Is karma 100% of things ?

Or is it karama part of the stuff and the 4 Niyamas are a different part ?
Pasindu
Posts: 75
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2022 5:14 am

Re: Is karma 100% of things ? karma VS 5 Niyamas

Post by Pasindu »

greentree wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:27 pm Is karma 100% of things ?

Or is it karama part of the stuff and the 4 Niyamas are a different part ?
"There are, revered Gotama, some ascetics and brahmans who have this doctrine and view: 'Whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action.' Now, what does the revered Gotama say about this?"

"Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behavior... by injuries... by the results of Kamma — (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true.

"Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans."
Sivaka Sutta
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nypo.html
User13866
Posts: 1238
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:50 am

Re: Is karma 100% of things ? karma VS 5 Niyamas

Post by User13866 »

"Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect."

— AN 6.63
"Monks, I will teach you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Listen and pay close attention. I will speak.

"Now what, monks, is old kamma? The eye is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is to be seen as old kamma, fabricated & willed, capable of being felt. This is called old kamma.

"And what is new kamma? Whatever kamma one does now with the body, with speech, or with the intellect: This is called new kamma.

"And what is the cessation of kamma? Whoever touches the release that comes from the cessation of bodily kamma, verbal kamma, & mental kamma: This is called the cessation of kamma.

"And what is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma.

"So, monks, I have taught you new & old kamma, the cessation of kamma, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. Whatever a teacher should do — seeking the welfare of his disciples, out of sympathy for them — that have I done for you. Over there are the roots of trees; over there, empty dwellings. Practice jhana, monks. Don't be heedless. Don't later fall into regret. This is our message to you."
"And what are fabrications? These six classes of intention — intention with regard to form, intention with regard to sound, intention with regard to smell, intention with regard to taste, intention with regard to tactile sensation, intention with regard to ideas: these are called fabrications. From the origination of contact comes the origination of fabrications. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of fabrications. And just this noble eightfold path is the path of practice leading to the cessation of fabrications...
These three are fabrications: bodily fabrications, verbal fabrications, mental fabrications. These are called fabrications.

"In-&-out breaths are bodily; these are things tied up with the body. That's why in-&-out breaths are bodily fabrications. 

Having first directed one's thoughts and made an evaluation, one then breaks out into speech. That's why directed thought & evaluation are verbal fabrications. 

Perceptions & feelings are mental; these are things tied up with the mind. That's why perceptions & feelings are mental fabrications."
“And why, bhikkhus, do you call them fabrications? ‘They fabricate the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called fabrications.

And what is the conditioned that they fabricate?

They fabricate conditioned form as form;
they fabricate conditioned feeling as feeling;
they fabricate conditioned perception as perception;
they fabricate conditioned fabrications as fabrications;
they fabricate conditioned consciousness as consciousness.

‘They fabricate the conditioned,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called fabrications.
SN 22.79
That in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world—this is called the world in the Noble One’s Discipline. And what, friends, is that in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world? The eye is that in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world . The ear … The nose … The tongue … The body … The mind is that in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world. That in the world by which one is a perceiver of the world, a conceiver of the world—this is called the world in the Noble One’s Discipline.
And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world.

"Dependent on the ear & sounds there arises ear-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the nose & aromas there arises nose-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the tongue & flavors there arises tongue-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the body & tactile sensations there arises body-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact... Dependent on the intellect & mental qualities there arises intellect-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world.
"Insofar as it disintegrates,[2] monk, it is called the 'world.' Now what disintegrates? The eye disintegrates. Forms disintegrate. Consciousness at the eye disintegrates. Contact at the eye disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates.

"The ear disintegrates. Sounds disintegrate…
"The nose disintegrates. Aromas disintegrate…
The tongue disintegrates. Tastes disintegrate…
"The body disintegrates. Tactile sensations disintegrate...

"The intellect disintegrates. Ideas disintegrate. Consciousness at the intellect consciousness disintegrates. Contact at the intellect disintegrates. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too disintegrates."Insofar as it disintegrates, it is called the 'world.'"
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
justindesilva
Posts: 2602
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Is karma 100% of things ? karma VS 5 Niyamas

Post by justindesilva »

greentree wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:27 pm Is karma 100% of things ?

Or is it karama part of the stuff and the 4 Niyamas are a different part ?
In vasetta sutta it is stated as
Kammana vattathi loko , kammana vattathi paja which mean that the world is processed by karma and world (loko) is processed by kamma, further adding that kamma binds all like the hook of the axle which binds the wheel .
Much to think of that panca niyama darma has its links to all, utu citta, damma, karma and bija. Karma again is not to be analysed as it is too complicated for analysis is the advice of lord budda.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Is karma 100% of things ? karma VS 5 Niyamas

Post by Sam Vara »

justindesilva wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:30 am
greentree wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 10:27 pm Is karma 100% of things ?

Or is it karama part of the stuff and the 4 Niyamas are a different part ?
In vasetta sutta it is stated as
Kammana vattathi loko , kammana vattathi paja which mean that the world is processed by karma and world (loko) is processed by kamma, further adding that kamma binds all like the hook of the axle which binds the wheel .
Much to think of that panca niyama darma has its links to all, utu citta, damma, karma and bija. Karma again is not to be analysed as it is too complicated for analysis is the advice of lord budda.
:goodpost: I agree. People tend to think of kamma-niyama as being separate from the other niyamas. But I can't see how they can be separated. We explain everything in life though the other niyamas, so how can we point to kamma as a separate one?
User13866
Posts: 1238
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:50 am

Re: Is karma 100% of things ? karma VS 5 Niyamas

Post by User13866 »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:57 am :goodpost: I agree. People tend to think of kamma-niyama as being separate from the other niyamas. But I can't see how they can be separated. We explain everything in life though the other niyamas, so how can we point to kamma as a separate one?
What means nyama here, how does it translate?
User13866
Posts: 1238
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2022 5:50 am

Re: Is karma 100% of things ? karma VS 5 Niyamas

Post by User13866 »

justindesilva wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:30 am In vasetta sutta it is stated as
Kammana vattathi loko , kammana vattathi paja which mean that the world is processed by karma and world (loko) is processed by kamma, further adding that kamma binds all like the hook of the axle which binds the wheel .
:goodpost: I haven't read this one before
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Is karma 100% of things ? karma VS 5 Niyamas

Post by Sam Vara »

User13866 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:55 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:57 am :goodpost: I agree. People tend to think of kamma-niyama as being separate from the other niyamas. But I can't see how they can be separated. We explain everything in life though the other niyamas, so how can we point to kamma as a separate one?
What means nyama here, how does it translate?
If I have understood justindesilva correctly, in this context it means "law, fixedness, certainty, natural order, necessity..."
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5613
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Is karma 100% of things ? karma VS 5 Niyamas

Post by robertk »

User13866 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:01 am
justindesilva wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:30 am In vasetta sutta it is stated as
Kammana vattathi loko , kammana vattathi paja which mean that the world is processed by karma and world (loko) is processed by kamma, further adding that kamma binds all like the hook of the axle which binds the wheel .
:goodpost: I haven't read this one before
:anjali: :anjali:
justindesilva
Posts: 2602
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Is karma 100% of things ? karma VS 5 Niyamas

Post by justindesilva »

robertk wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:39 am
User13866 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:01 am
justindesilva wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:30 am In vasetta sutta it is stated as
Kammana vattathi loko , kammana vattathi paja which mean that the world is processed by karma and world (loko) is processed by kamma, further adding that kamma binds all like the hook of the axle which binds the wheel .
:goodpost: I haven't read this one before
:anjali: :anjali:
May I correct a mis here, as should be the world is processed by karma and the persons or civic (paja) is processed by karma .
With metta.
Bhi.Dhammānanda
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:03 am

Re: Is karma 100% of things ? karma VS 5 Niyamas

Post by Bhi.Dhammānanda »

User13866 wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:55 am
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:57 am :goodpost: I agree. People tend to think of kamma-niyama as being separate from the other niyamas. But I can't see how they can be separated. We explain everything in life though the other niyamas, so how can we point to kamma as a separate one?
What means nyama here, how does it translate?
Niyāma means something like Natural Law. There are 5 Niyāma: The first law is the Utu Niyāma or the law of physical nature or physical existence. This is the law, that governs the coming into being and evolution of the physical Universe.

The second law, called Bīja Niyāma or the law of heredity and growth, is a law that comes into play after the physical universe has reached a certain stage of evolution and balance. It is the natural law that governs the growth and reproduction of the various species from plant life to higher beings.

When life has evolved to such a degree, that it is capable of sustained growth and the building upon an inheritance of reasonably well functioning faculties, the third law, called Citta Niyāma, begins to take the lead. This is the law that governs the appearance and sequence in regard to all mental phenomena.

The fourth, Kamma Niyāma, is the law of cause and effect, specifically in regards to mind and intention. This too builds upon the previous ones, in that, through thinking and the creation of ideas, an intention develops, especially so in relation to the three periods of time, that is, past, present, and future.

The last law, Dhamma Niyāma is the law of Holiness. It is the law that comes into play when a person becomes skillful in using the law of kamma. That is, a person, based on acquired learning about the imperfect nature of material or worldly life and the possibility of perfecting his being, is setting before himself to transcend this material or worldly life and works to become such perfected being.

I have written some posts about each of them: http://highermindart.com/home/panca-niy ... existence/, in case anyone has interest.
asahi
Posts: 2732
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: Is karma 100% of things ? karma VS 5 Niyamas

Post by asahi »

Kamma is intention but intention in action are not without consequences ie vipaka . Since nothing is independent of itself not a stand alone factor , there are influences .
No bashing No gossiping
justindesilva
Posts: 2602
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Re: Is karma 100% of things ? karma VS 5 Niyamas

Post by justindesilva »

asahi wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 3:40 pm Kamma is intention but intention in action are not without consequences ie vipaka . Since nothing is independent of itself not a stand alone factor , there are influences .
Then the problem arises as to how the panca niyama damma be used to analyse a situation . I couple of days ago saw a post in internet pointing that the people who are involved in Turkey disaster are those who are subjected to a karma vipaka , With this I remember the tsunami in Sri lanka in 2014 , as I remember . In both cases of Turkey and Sri Lanka the only sympathetic argument is Panca niyama darma and they are a result of ritu niyama darma or a result of physical forces . Both occured as results of earthquakes under the sea and immediate intentions of masses is not applicable . The only reasonable argument of Karma is that some could escape from injuries and death even under debris because of their past good karma . One can argue on application of citta niyama and damma niyama except bija niyama but remains to be only argumentative without solid arguments from sutta .
blightmaster
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:57 am

Re: Is karma 100% of things ? karma VS 5 Niyamas

Post by blightmaster »

I mean if you know the answer it wouldn't be much of a test anymore.
you're not a shape shifter, you're a mindless ghoul in previous life and you will fall again • those who draw the sword die by the sword, but oh wait you're too lame to even use a sword
blightmaster
Posts: 32
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2023 11:57 am

Re: Is karma 100% of things ? karma VS 5 Niyamas

Post by blightmaster »

What is dhamma niyama? Is it the law that governs the kalpas and samsara?

And what is citta niyama? Is it the law that governs jhana and consciousness beyond kamma?

Bija niyama governs the plant or vegetation realm, because plants aren't included as living beings in Buddhism. Since you can't reincarnate into plants, plants don't have a consciousness.
you're not a shape shifter, you're a mindless ghoul in previous life and you will fall again • those who draw the sword die by the sword, but oh wait you're too lame to even use a sword
Post Reply