Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by SarathW »

Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?
I am mainly concerned about self-view. (or wrong views)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Meggo
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by Meggo »

Even insects should have self-view. Otherwise it would be impossible for them to take part in the cycle of rebirths.
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by DNS »

There are some self-awareness tests, one of the most simple ones is the mirror test. If the animal looks into the mirror and recognizes an animal there and especially if they recognize it is them, then they have self-awareness. Higher primates and dolphins and some other animals have 'passed' this test.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness
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analysis
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by analysis »

Venerable Malukyaputta was condemned by the Buddha, about taking Samyojanas not as Anusaya.
Otherwise babies also can be called as not having Sakkayaditthi.

I don't know how to recognize the animal's Sakkayaditthi as a pariyutthana, but they definiely have Sakkayaditthi Anusaya.
Samyojana (bonds) means latent kilesas.
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by Mahabrahma »

I was told by a Jain Practitioner of Ahimsa that Animals have a feeling of a collective "we" instead of an "I", but this of course depends on the type of Animal.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by Ceisiwr »

SarathW wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:21 am Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?
I am mainly concerned about self-view. (or wrong views)
For the great apes and those who past the mirror test, yes. Hard to say for other animals. For eusocial species, it’s even harder to say.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
SarathW
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by SarathW »

analysis wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:34 pm Venerable Malukyaputta was condemned by the Buddha, about taking Samyojanas not as Anusaya.
Otherwise babies also can be called as not having Sakkayaditthi.

I don't know how to recognize the animal's Sakkayaditthi as a pariyutthana, but they definiely have Sakkayaditthi Anusaya.
Samyojana (bonds) means latent kilesas.
Thanks.
Could you provide the Sutta reference for this story of Venerable Malukyaputta, please?
:anjali:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Pasindu
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by Pasindu »

SarathW wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:21 am Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?
I am mainly concerned about self-view. (or wrong views)
Buddha has said,

Sabbe tasanti dandassa
sabbesam jivitam piyam
attanam upamam katva
na haneyya na ghataye.

Dhammapada Verse 130: All [except for arhats] are afraid of punishment, all hold their lives dear. Putting oneself in another's place, one should not beat or kill others.

Isn't this because of view of self?
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analysis
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by analysis »

SarathW wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:47 pm
analysis wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:34 pm Venerable Malukyaputta was condemned by the Buddha, about taking Samyojanas not as Anusaya.
Otherwise babies also can be called as not having Sakkayaditthi.

I don't know how to recognize the animal's Sakkayaditthi as a pariyutthana, but they definiely have Sakkayaditthi Anusaya.
Samyojana (bonds) means latent kilesas.
Thanks.
Could you provide the Sutta reference for this story of Venerable Malukyaputta, please?
:anjali:
Dear SarathW,
Please see the below.
MN64 Mahāmālukyaputtasutta

“Mendicants, do you remember the five lower fetters that I taught?”

When he said this, Venerable Māluṅkyaputta said to him, “Sir, I remember them.”

“But how do you remember them?”

“I remember the lower fetters taught by the Buddha as follows: identity view, doubt, misapprehension of precepts and observances, sensual desire, and ill will. That’s how I remember the five lower fetters taught by the Buddha.”

“Who on earth do you remember being taught the five lower fetters in that way? Wouldn’t the wanderers who follow other paths fault you using the simile of the infant? For a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘identity’, so how could identity view possibly arise in them? Yet the underlying tendency to identity view still lies within them.
And the commentary describes more about it.
SarathW
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by SarathW »

analysis wrote: Thu Sep 29, 2022 9:30 pm
SarathW wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:47 pm
analysis wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 4:34 pm Venerable Malukyaputta was condemned by the Buddha, about taking Samyojanas not as Anusaya.
Otherwise babies also can be called as not having Sakkayaditthi.

I don't know how to recognize the animal's Sakkayaditthi as a pariyutthana, but they definiely have Sakkayaditthi Anusaya.
Samyojana (bonds) means latent kilesas.
Thanks.
Could you provide the Sutta reference for this story of Venerable Malukyaputta, please?
:anjali:
Dear SarathW,
Please see the below.
MN64 Mahāmālukyaputtasutta

“Mendicants, do you remember the five lower fetters that I taught?”

When he said this, Venerable Māluṅkyaputta said to him, “Sir, I remember them.”

“But how do you remember them?”

“I remember the lower fetters taught by the Buddha as follows: identity view, doubt, misapprehension of precepts and observances, sensual desire, and ill will. That’s how I remember the five lower fetters taught by the Buddha.”

“Who on earth do you remember being taught the five lower fetters in that way? Wouldn’t the wanderers who follow other paths fault you using the simile of the infant? For a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘identity’, so how could identity view possibly arise in them? Yet the underlying tendency to identity view still lies within them.
And the commentary describes more about it.
:goodpost:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Eko Care
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by Eko Care »

Meggo wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:23 pm Even insects should have self-view. Otherwise it would be impossible for them to take part in the cycle of rebirths.
The necessity is only the latent self-view, as described by above mentioned Mahamalunkyaputta Sutta.
May be they have self-view as well.
justindesilva
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by justindesilva »

Eko Care wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:55 am
Meggo wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 3:23 pm Even insects should have self-view. Otherwise it would be impossible for them to take part in the cycle of rebirths.
The necessity is only the latent self-view, as described by above mentioned Mahamalunkyaputta Sutta.
May be they have self-view as well.
Well have you noticed a monkey looking in a mirror. It thinks that it is another monkey. And a dog barking at its own image in a water hole. A bird picking on its own image in a mirror. They are all a result of self view .
form
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by form »

They have their view of their existence.
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by SteRo »

SarathW wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:21 am Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?
I am mainly concerned about self-view. (or wrong views)
I suggest you interview the animals you are interested in.
Cleared. αδόξαστος.
SarathW
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Re: Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?

Post by SarathW »

SteRo wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:52 pm
SarathW wrote: Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:21 am Do animals have the notion of I, me, and myself?
I am mainly concerned about self-view. (or wrong views)
I suggest you interview the animals you are interested in.
This is a silly answer.
Are you jocking?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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