We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
User avatar
Eko Care
Posts: 681
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 am

Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by Eko Care »

Pulsar wrote: robertk wrote
When there is kusala citta the manasikara which accompanies the kusala circa is also kusala.
Thank you, following this line of reasoning how would you explain the following abhidhammic statement?
When the magga-citta (a kusala citta) is present, the self is absent.
Has the 12 nidanas vanished in the magga-citta? Can you elaborate on the nature of consciousness in Magga-citta?
What I meant was "Magga-citta doesn't perceives a self as it's object" as well as "Any cittas thereafter doesn't perceive a self as it's object."

Self is always an Object. It is not to be found in any kind of Citta.

Self is always an Non-real Object. It is not to be found in any kind of Paramattha.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 26685
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:09 pm The logic of this seems off. It’s like saying that because dukkha is universal to all, dukkha is therefore a basis for a self.
It seems the basis for yours.

:shrug:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"Why now do you assume 'a being'? Mara, have you grasped a view?" (SN 5.10)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 10881
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:09 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:44 am Greetings Eko Care,
Eko Care wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:41 am
What is the problem with being universal?

We can see all the 52 cetasikas' three characteristics.
If it's common to all, it's absent from none - omnipresent. Perfect soil for the perception of self to hide. Got any other universals where self can hide?

Metta,
Paul. :)
The logic of this seems off. It’s like saying that because dukkha is universal to all, dukkha is therefore a basis for a self.
It actually might be, in the sense of being required for a sense of self to arise.
User avatar
Eko Care
Posts: 681
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 am

Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by Eko Care »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:55 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:09 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:44 am If it's common to all, it's absent from none - omnipresent. Perfect soil for the perception of self to hide. Got any other universals where self can hide?
The logic of this seems off. It’s like saying that because dukkha is universal to all, dukkha is therefore a basis for a self.
It actually might be, in the sense of being required for a sense of self to arise.
Even the cittas of Arahants have Manasikara because it is universal.

Self can't hide anywhere in mind because it is an object of mind.

Also, Self can't hide anywhere in in this world because it doesn't exist.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 10881
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by Sam Vara »

Eko Care wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:39 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:55 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:09 pm
The logic of this seems off. It’s like saying that because dukkha is universal to all, dukkha is therefore a basis for a self.
It actually might be, in the sense of being required for a sense of self to arise.
Even the cittas of Arahants have Manasikara because it is universal.

Self can't hide anywhere in mind because it is an object of mind.

Also, Self can't hide anywhere in in this world because it doesn't exist.
Ah, they are the axioms, are they?
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 19133
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am

Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:55 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:09 pm
retrofuturist wrote: Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:44 am Greetings Eko Care,


If it's common to all, it's absent from none - omnipresent. Perfect soil for the perception of self to hide. Got any other universals where self can hide?

Metta,
Paul. :)
The logic of this seems off. It’s like saying that because dukkha is universal to all, dukkha is therefore a basis for a self.
It actually might be, in the sense of being required for a sense of self to arise.
Sorry, I don’t follow?
“In the same way, great king, when a bhikkhu sees that these five hindrances are unabandoned within himself, he regards that as a debt, as a sickness, as confinement in prison, as slavery, as a desert road.

“But when he sees that these five hindrances have been abandoned within himself, he regards that as freedom from debt, as good health, as release from prison, as freedom from slavery, as a place of safety.”


Sāmaññaphalasutta
User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 10881
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by Sam Vara »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:56 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:55 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:09 pm

The logic of this seems off. It’s like saying that because dukkha is universal to all, dukkha is therefore a basis for a self.
It actually might be, in the sense of being required for a sense of self to arise.
Sorry, I don’t follow?
I was just idly musing, really, but here goes. If I had never experienced the slightest hint of dukkha - if my experiences had always been a smooth increase in happiness, never causing the slightest wish that things were otherwise - could I conceive of a "self"? Would I ever think of myself as a "being", or would there just be a continuous flow of happiness?
User avatar
Eko Care
Posts: 681
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:13 am

Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by Eko Care »

Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:37 pm
Eko Care wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:39 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:55 pm
It actually might be, in the sense of being required for a sense of self to arise.
Even the cittas of Arahants have Manasikara because it is universal.

Self can't hide anywhere in mind because it is an object of mind.

Also, Self can't hide anywhere in in this world because it doesn't exist.
Ah, they are the axioms, are they?
I think they become axioms after heard.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 10881
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: We traveled through this whole Samsara, just because this “Mere” Non-Analysis

Post by Sam Vara »

Eko Care wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 3:30 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 2:37 pm
Eko Care wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 1:39 pm

Even the cittas of Arahants have Manasikara because it is universal.

Self can't hide anywhere in mind because it is an object of mind.

Also, Self can't hide anywhere in in this world because it doesn't exist.
Ah, they are the axioms, are they?
I think they become axioms after heard.
Well, they are axioms if they are treated as such.
Post Reply